Live Earth

[Unfinished]

It's a good thing for monsanto, it's a bad thing for genetic variation.

As the concensus is that "GE is bad" surely the terminator gene is a good thing, since we don't want GE-genetic variation. So all the modified genes disappear...

Leaving nothing, 'cause the plain variations would have been herbicided out of existance...

[sgt mukuzi]

the modified crops mate easily with unmodified crop
ie normal crop without modification

[Terexgeek]

It's a good thing for monsanto, it's a bad thing for genetic variation.

As the concensus is that "GE is bad" surely the terminator gene is a good thing, since we don't want GE-genetic variation. So all the modified genes disappear...

Leaving nothing, 'cause the plain variations would have been herbicided out of existance...

You should work for Monsanto's PR department, that's precisely what they'd love all the farmers to believe.

The reality is you will still get pesticide resistance in the wild population.

Bearing in mind the "terminator" gene will be interacting with a wild population, it will also not prevent GE genes transfering to the wild population since you can't guarantee what happens with the mutations. Certain specimens will either turn off the "terminator" or avoid it altogether and these will of course have an advantage over other plants offspring...

[sgt mukuzi]

[In New Zealand there is a lobby group AGAINST monitoring and regulating what's in our food because it'll mean administrating from Australia and involve analysing the contents of "alternative medicines and food suppliments"...

Food companies don’t want us to know what’s in the food, otherwise they would freely admit were eating GE food everyday, there is nothing to say in Australia or New Zealand that the food has a GE component on the label. I doubt any ausie politician is going to legislate real food labelling, I believe we have more of a chance of that leaving it up to the kiwi Pollys. Other countries have fair food labelling and the GE stuff gets left on the shelf. Look at some of the major European companies opening up shop in Australia, have a look at the label and there is very little info on the labels about what the ingredients are. First thing you need to realise is your eating GE food, you probably have this morning without knowing it, ask your self why isn’t it on the lable.

[Terexgeek]

[In New Zealand there is a lobby group AGAINST monitoring and regulating what's in our food because it'll mean administrating from Australia and involve analysing the contents of "alternative medicines and food suppliments"...

Food companies don’t want us to know what’s in the food, otherwise they would freely admit were eating GE food everyday, there is nothing to say in Australia or New Zealand that the food has a GE component on the label. I doubt any ausie politician is going to legislate real food labelling, I believe we have more of a chance of that leaving it up to the kiwi Pollys. Other countries have fair food labelling and the GE stuff gets left on the shelf. Look at some of the major European companies opening up shop in Australia, have a look at the label and there is very little info on the labels about what the ingredients are. First thing you need to realise is your eating GE food, you probably have this morning without knowing it, ask your self why isn’t it on the lable.

Actually the food companies don't give a samick whether you know what's in the food or not, they just want you to buy their products.

When they're against labelling they're actually against the cost involved with setting it up and ongoing compliance, staffing to support the process etc...'cos the companies know that if they put their prices up to cover the costs the consumer complains...

AND if the folks behind the "alternative medicine" industry weren't so opposed to it, the GE in my museli (and I'm 99% confident my breakfast cereal doesn't have a GE component, however I wouldn't care if it did) would be labelled.

Thing is folks are concerned that the cooked corn they've eaten might have had a great, great, great, great, great, great grandparent plant who'd been pollinated with some marker gene (even though any and all DNA is denatured by cooking, and hey, they is corn, it's fibre and starch.) because "corporations are bad" "GE is bad" "insert slogan here" "I don't need to think, greenpeace does it for me"

Yet folks will pop Omega3 suppliments with no thought as to the dioxin or lead content and march down the street side by side with the "businesspeople" selling the stuff, protesting against the government legislation that everyone must be accountable...

Or should only the "baddies" be accountable and the "goodies" don't have to? So, which are the "goodies" and which are the "baddies" hmmm?

[rocklander]

bill odie was goodies... clint eastwood was baddies (or was he the ugly? I don't remember)

but all in all - again... hear hear!

[sgt mukuzi]

[
Actually the food companies don't give a samick whether you know what's in the food or not, they just want you to buy their products.

When they're against labelling they're actually against the cost involved with setting it up and ongoing compliance, staffing to support the process etc...'cos the companies know that if they put their prices up to cover the costs the consumer complains...

I do not agree with this at all, this is a BS excuses IMO other countries have GE label on the same products we eat, in out case the sticker is removed or simply not present

[

AND if the folks behind the "alternative medicine" industry weren't so opposed to it, the GE in my museli (and I'm 99% confident my breakfast cereal doesn't have a GE component, however I wouldn't care if it did) would be labelled. ?

Did you know coltsfoot is illegal in Australia…?

[

Or should only the "baddies" be accountable and the "goodies" don't have to? So, which are the "goodies" and which are the "baddies" hmmm?

“Alternative medicine people” aren’t opposed to labelling, there apposed to the rules coming from Australia. Can’t New Zealand decide by them selves what is right for New Zealanders? I mean honestly come on. Ask your self why must the change come from Australia, and for kicks I will tell you the answer
Because all of the main offices of the large drug and food companies are run out of Australia and Australia has shown in the past a penchant for toting to big business

[Terexgeek]

[
Actually the food companies don't give a samick whether you know what's in the food or not, they just want you to buy their products.

When they're against labelling they're actually against the cost involved with setting it up and ongoing compliance, staffing to support the process etc...'cos the companies know that if they put their prices up to cover the costs the consumer complains...

I do not agree with this at all, this is a BS excuses IMO other countries have GE label on the same products we eat, in out case the sticker is removed or simply not present

Or not placed on the export order because it's not required in Enzed, I'm sorry Sgt, I don't see a malevolent intend here, if we had legislation that required everyone to declare it, everyone would comply. It's seems unlikely simply "expecting" companies to label everything would work, because the honest companies (with the additional costs of labelling, oh and no standard to meet on labelling) have to compete with the dishonest companies (with lower costs and therefore higher margins to direct to marketing etc...) in the marketplace.

As a matter of interest it costs money for a company to find out how to meet a standard, sometimes thousands, companies meet standards all the time, the end user pays, always.

AND if the folks behind the "alternative medicine" industry weren't so opposed to it, the GE in my museli (and I'm 99% confident my breakfast cereal doesn't have a GE component, however I wouldn't care if it did) would be labelled. ?

Did you know coltsfoot is illegal in Australia…?

No, have you the clinical research on the carcinogenic properties of coltsfoot?

Or should only the "baddies" be accountable and the "goodies" don't have to? So, which are the "goodies" and which are the "baddies" hmmm?

“Alternative medicine people” aren’t opposed to labelling, there apposed to the rules coming from Australia. Can’t New Zealand decide by them selves what is right for New Zealanders? I mean honestly come on. Ask your self why must the change come from Australia, and for kicks I will tell you the answer
Because all of the main offices of the large drug and food companies are run out of Australia and Australia has shown in the past a penchant for toting to big business

It has got more to do with costs, Australia uses a lot of New Zealand standards where New Zealand has done the testing and New Zealand uses Australia's standards where Australia has done the testing. To generate a standard and testing procedure on one product line takes a lot of hours and research, when you consider the millions of products that will need to be tested and approved surely it is logical to avoid re-inventing the wheel.

The type of testing you require would cost New Zealand billions (the taxpayers and consumers, and it may even stop overseas companies from selling here, force local product's prices up as NZ companies find it cheaper to sell overseas through international standards than to meet locally developed standards) and would HAVE to involve overseas companies as NZ doesn't have the lab capacity to cope. Hell NZ labs don't have the capacity, equipment or staff to cope with the work already here.

I would suggest (at a guess) the reason the coltsfoot is illegal is probably because someone asked about submitting it for testing, found out the cost and decided sod that!

The alternative medicine industry is an industry and considering you can be charged $40 for a 10ml vial of homeopathic remedy, with a cost price of what? $0.50 for the bottle? There probably room to pay for a little testing and meet the regulations everyone else does.

One rule for all, if we want labelling we'll have to pay, personally I'm for labelling on all prepackaged food and supplements. I'm also happy to let Aussie bear the brunt of the costs in setting the system up.

[sgt mukuzi]

Thanks for the reply,

Reading the label is a passion of mine; the modified corn starch is a Ge product as far as I know
And the company who makes it also knows what it is and where it came from
They developed it
They should state what it is and how it was made
Simple as that really
From your post you seem to be talking about an independent body to do testing and set up standards.
I’m not talking about that, I’m saying they should state what they know instead of hiding it.
In Australia and New Zealand chemicals that have been shown to cause cancer in Sweden and California are freely used here
Nothing on the label
Why not something like "this product had been tested in California and there tests indicate this stuff will kill you!!"
Easy
What are they spraying on mushrooms here and in Australia?
I believe it’s banned in many countries
Some of the cosmetic chemicals are also banned in other countries but you’re not going to hear that at fashion week are you.
Malevolent intent I kid you not

have you read about the X-ray tests done on people here and in Australia in the 50`s and 60`s and gulp the 70`s
Children in schools were x-rayed to get information about how the body reacts to radiation
We have staggering cancer rates here and in ausie
Blame it on the sun!
A friend told me 7 out of ten of her friends have or have had cancer
They all grew up in the same small country town in Victoria
What is the cancer rate in small towns in Victoria?
Why are these women getting cancer at 23 years old?

I don’t know man but it’s a start if we know what were eating

[Terexgeek]

Thanks for the reply, Reading the label is a passion of mine; the modified corn starch is a Ge product as far as I know
And the company who makes it also knows what it is and where it came from
They developed it
They should state what it is and how it was made
Simple as that really

Modified corn starch is processed corn starch, not genetically modified corn starch. However you COULD HAVE modified corn starch from genetically modified corn, but you can also have it from normal corn too.

From your post you seem to be talking about an independent body to do testing and set up standards.
I’m not talking about that, I’m saying they should state what they know instead of hiding it.

That would mean companies could use "plausable deniability" and have a "don't ask, don't tell policy" with their growers. If you want testing, an independent lab is the only way to get meaningful results IMHO. If you don't look for a particular thing, you are probably not going to find it.

Independant authorities already exist, in Aussie, throughout the EU, USA. Why reinvent the wheel?

In Australia and New Zealand chemicals that have been shown to cause cancer in Sweden and California are freely used here
Nothing on the label

Yep and I've seen some of the labelling out of california on machines I've sold and frankly it's pretty irrelevant. Are you aware that you exposing yourself to toxic carcinogenic chemicals simply by filling up your car?

Why not something like "this product had been tested in California and there tests indicate this stuff will kill you!!"
Easy

Because when you read the standard that came up with that conclusion sometimes it involves an unrealistic exposure level, ie. filling up your car a couple of times a week doesn't significantly alter your risk of cancer, but swimming in the fuel will, intentional inhalation will, drinking it will, etc...

This is not a black and white situation and yes I agree, lets use an overseas standard, my whole point (thank you for agreeing with me BTW) but I would suggest we have a greater chance of influencing Aussie policy than Californian or Swedish...

What are they spraying on mushrooms here and in Australia?

I dunno, something to kill the e-coli (which I seem to recall you disliked so much in the GE section earlier), anthrax et al that lives in the manure that the mushrooms grow in maybe? Probably to protect the consumer from getting sick...

I believe it’s banned in many countries

At what level is it toxic?
Pseudoephidrine found in cold and flu remedies is banned across North America, hang on, weren't you against Aussie telling us what to do and now you want unstated "many countries" determining what NZers use?
Added thiamine is illegal in the US of A, ask anyone who has tried to bring in a jar of vegemite/marmite into the US, yet it naturally occurs in vege/marmite, should we ban yeast extracts 'cos high levels of thiamine scares a few yanks?
Tetrahydracannabinol is banned in NZ and many countries and some folks in NZ would like that changed. How should it be decided what chemicals are good and bad, scientific analysis or politians opinion?
Alcohol is illegal in muslim countries, intoxicating in low doses, poisonous in medium doses and high doses it's fatal, ban?
Water is fatal when consumed in excess, ban?

Some of the cosmetic chemicals are also banned in other countries but you’re not going to hear that at fashion week are you.
Malevolent intent I kid you not

Er, again thresholds, eg selenium required in trace amounts but is toxic in high doses and a deficiency of is carcenogenic. For another example many European and US sourced mineral water brands (organic brands too) are radioactive. This is because they have filtered (naturally) through granite which naturally contains small amounts of uranium (naturally!). Is it harmful? No, 'cos it's very small quantities, could it become harmful? Yes, if you're to consume physically dangerous quantities of water, and not because of the radioactivity. So is it relevant? No, would Sue Kedgely panic? Probably...

have you read about the X-ray tests done on people here and in Australia in the 50`s and 60`s and gulp the 70`s
Children in schools were x-rayed to get information about how the body reacts to radiation
We have staggering cancer rates here and in ausie
Blame it on the sun!
A friend told me 7 out of ten of her friends have or have had cancer
They all grew up in the same small country town in Victoria
What is the cancer rate in small towns in Victoria?
Why are these women getting cancer at 23 years old?

And yet the average life expectancy goes up and up, cancer is horrible, but people are living longer and longer. Australia has high levels of naturally occuring uranium, possibly the town has been built on a highly radioactive area. Heresay is a dangerous thing, a friend of a friend usually starts urban myths. I have relatives in a small country town in Victoria whose friends don't have any cancer but what does that prove? Oh and remember NZ has naturally low levels of selenium and low selenium levels in humans are linked to cancer.

Reminds me of the character who complimented my wife purchasing a labelled GE free product ('cos it tasted good, not 'cos it was GE free) since he thought it was really healthy and proceeded to purchase a carton of cigarettes...

BTW I'm very sorry for your friend, I have lost relatives to cancer, it's no joking matter.

I don’t know man but it’s a start if we know what were eating

I agree, let's test it and let's test it properly (so we know what's in food and suppliments), relevantly (so we're not panicking over the presence of dihydrogen oxide.) and independantly (so those nasty corporations small or large can't influence the results)...

Bored now, moving on...

[rocklander]

I've heard that many kiwis have had tests show that they have levels of H3O in their stomachs. They pour sodium chloride on their food and even cook with it.
..and it's not the drinking of c2h6o from vessels made of Al, it's how we're drinking c2h6o from vessels made of Al

[sgt mukuzi]

great stuff
cheers all

[Basket Case]

Very interesting guys. Who would have thought you could learn so much about GE on a guitar forum?

Glad you managed to keep it civil.

[dc]

Actually, that was damn good. Amazing how people can express opinions without the debate breaking down.

I think we've proved it's all a conspiracy too.

[Bg]

ah........ you're all talking bollocks