FREE SOUNDMAN - Wellington City

spasm6 · Post by **spasm6** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:07 pm

We are having an uncannily similar discussion on the jazz school Facebook page. The head of production Dave Saunders (he's worked on tours with Roger Waters, Jeff Beck, Mark Knopfler etc) had this to say.

I might spec for an ad for TV for $5k..... you might do (respectively) not quite such a good job for $500. You are happy, and the client is delighted, they saved $4.5k and they got an ad..... they may not really register the difference between the two "professional" outcomes....... they are both 30 seconds long and seem to do the job... you win $500 and I lose $5k.The bottom line of expectation moves..... The ad is not quite as good as it should be, but no one really cares - it's just advertising. Next year, a leaving student undercuts you for $300 - they get the job - I lose $5k, you lose $500 and the new composer wins $300. The client gets a crap ad which we are all subjected to on the TV.......The quality goes down and no one cares - it's only advertising. But the bottom line of the budget has now moved PERMANENTLY by two generations of proven win, win success, and is now the norm.... We set precedents by what we do and what we uphold, change and charge. Beware undermining your own future..... it is virtually impossible to back-track once we re-set the "norm"......... have sensibility, faith and karma for your business. Keep the industry nourished and rightfully expectant. "What do you mean that you want paying for it ? " You're doing what you love....aren't you ?

mr_sooty · Post by **mr_sooty** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:17 pm

I'm in a similar situation with illustrating. Trying to get some paid work, but there are a lot of university trained professional illustrators out there who are far better at it than me. A good illustrator may charge say $2K for a kids book, but if I try and charge that much I'm just not going to get the work. I don't have any training past 6th form art, I'm just a guy that does cartoons, and there's probably millions of people who can do that. So my only option is to undercut. I'm currently charging about half what a trained proffesional illustrator would charge. I don't think it hurts the industry at all, it's all about levels. You could just as easily argue "who's going to pay $4K for a Les Paul when you can get a Karina that does exactly the same thing for $400, and no one in the audience is going to be able to tell the difference. Yet Gibson stays in business, because we recognise that if you want the real deal, you pay the big bucks.

Post by **Capt. Black** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:18 pm

robnobcorncob wrote:Good on you Ben. Whilst you have listed your services are 'free' don't let anyone walk all over you (not least the people on this forum).

I hope no one is walking all over Ben. Least of all on here. Or most of all on here. I don't know, which is correct? Take your pick.

I sincerely hope Ben takes the bulk of these comments as constructive and in some perverse way, encouraging.

Post by **Capt. Black** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:20 pm

mr_sooty wrote:...if you want the real deal, you pay the big bucks.

rickenbackerkid · Post by **rickenbackerkid** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:26 pm

capt abaham wrote:its not easy getting started but after 10 years Ben should have a few contacts ay

Dozen and dozens in the church world. Very, very few in the wider wellington music scene. I'm looking to meet some at grass roots level.

There's no way in hell that I'm offering hours and hours of work for nothing, but a couple of free shows with band could lead to good will and getting paid for the 3rd show.
Or maybe the venue could like what they hear and keep me on for an evening a week.

I don't feel like I'm lowering anyones standards either. I'm not a genius, but I know what I'm doing and my sound chops would speak for themselves if they got a chance.

Thanks for the feedback all.

TmcB · Post by **TmcB** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:44 pm

Is there any band you know that you could attach yourself to?
With sound you've really got to work your way up from the ground floor, which you know.

I think what you'll have to avoid is the perception that you'll do sound like you would at church.
From my experience doing sound at church and at gigs, apart from the standard 'fix problems, kill feedback and mic select' side of things, the way you'd eq instruments and the total sound is very different. I'm talking rocky church too.

Post by Bg » Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:47 pm

spasm6 wrote:We are having an uncannily similar discussion on the jazz school Facebook page. The head of production Dave Saunders (he's worked on tours with Roger Waters, Jeff Beck, Mark Knopfler etc) had this to say.

I might spec for an ad for TV for $5k..... you might do (respectively) not quite such a good job for $500. You are happy, and the client is delighted, they saved $4.5k and they got an ad..... they may not really register the difference between the two "professional" outcomes....... they are both 30 seconds long and seem to do the job... you win $500 and I lose $5k.The bottom line of expectation moves..... The ad is not quite as good as it should be, but no one really cares - it's just advertising. Next year, a leaving student undercuts you for $300 - they get the job - I lose $5k, you lose $500 and the new composer wins $300. The client gets a crap ad which we are all subjected to on the TV.......The quality goes down and no one cares - it's only advertising. But the bottom line of the budget has now moved PERMANENTLY by two generations of proven win, win success, and is now the norm.... We set precedents by what we do and what we uphold, change and charge. Beware undermining your own future..... it is virtually impossible to back-track once we re-set the "norm"......... have sensibility, faith and karma for your business. Keep the industry nourished and rightfully expectant. "What do you mean that you want paying for it ? " You're doing what you love....aren't you ?

Thats pretty similar to what happens in the internet programming business. College students undercutting the pros, a short sighted stupidity as they'll be looking to charge realistic rates once they finish college and end up working properly for a living.

slash-ed · Post by **slash-ed** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:52 pm

Capt. Black wrote:
robnobcorncob wrote:Good on you Ben. Whilst you have listed your services are 'free' don't let anyone walk all over you (not least the people on this forum).
I hope no one is walking all over Ben. Least of all on here.

Nobody puts bbrunskill in a corner.

Post by **Capt. Black** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:09 pm

slash-ed wrote:

Nobody puts bbrunskill in a corner.

Hehehe. Another one of the things on my empty bucket list.
Along with never learning stairway, I've never seen that movie.

Post by Bg » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:15 pm

good choice, I've never seen titanic either.

Scooter13 · Post by **Scooter13** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:36 pm

TmcB wrote:I'm talking rocky church too.

There's a church that worships Rocky???! Is it like the Fonz church in Family Guy?

TmcB · Post by **TmcB** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:41 pm

Scooter13 wrote:
TmcB wrote:I'm talking rocky church too.
There's a church that worships Rocky???! Is it like the Fonz church in Family Guy?

Yeah we all turn up and yell "AYDREEAN!" for two hours solid. Total pain in the ass to mix; with all the slurring you're never sure who's meant to be the lead vocal.

Post by **Capt. Black** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:42 pm

Balboa or Lander?

slash-ed · Post by **slash-ed** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:53 pm

Capt. Black wrote:
slash-ed wrote:

Nobody puts bbrunskill in a corner.
Hehehe. Another one of the things on my empty bucket list.
Along with never learning stairway, I've never seen that movie.

Actually neither have I, but I like pop culture references.

I would go to a Rocky Balboa church. Just saying.

Aquila Rossa · Post by **Aquila Rossa** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:55 pm

Rocky and Patrick? OK, I had better read the OP.

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