Jazz? It's not all wank

[Danger Mouse]

I'm not really explaining myself clearly, but that isn't quite what I mean. There certainly are players in metal guilty of that theoretical overload, but they really are not as prevalent as you might think. The guys Steve was on about are the guitarists that have spent years building up their physical dexterity to the point where they can play very well, but have almost no theory knowledge, can't read music, hardly even know what the scales they use are. The Dimebag Darrells (he definitely could groove), the Dave Mustaines (who once said scales are for fish), the Jeff Hannemans (Slayer might sound basic, but theres some tricky stuff to play hidden in there) etc. No questioning their ability but they are far from the metal equivalent of jazz wanks.

In fact, thinking about it, none of the metal guitarists I've played with over the years have anything more than very, very basic theory knowledge and I'm very much in that camp too. Sure, we might still sound emotionless and lacking in feel and be all flash for the sake of it, but it's certainly not because we've studied too hard.

You're confusing the point- I'm not talking exclusively about musical theory or academic study. Training your dexterity is still part of the same issue. It's just an emphasis on technique rather than theory. It also emphasises my original point- that the kind of playing that seems to define Jazz to most people isn't necessarily representative of the genre. What you seem to be saying is that the same is true of metal, which I completely agree with.

Well I am easily confused, admittedly...

Nah that was the point I was clumsily trying to make, that the "worst offenders" in metal are not representative of the genre (guys like me are) and you saying overly intellectualised music is there in "quite a lot of metal" is no more accurate than me saying a lot of Jazz is emotionless wank.

[bender]

Nah that was the point I was clumsily trying to make, that the "worst offenders" in metal are not representative of the genre (guys like me are) and you saying overly intellectualised music is there in "quite a lot of metal" is no more accurate than me saying a lot of Jazz is emotionless wank.

...(and quite a bit of metal TBH) has some pretty horrendous offenders

I only meant that quite a few of the metal sub-genres have some pretty horrendous examples of what I'm talking about. That's not to say that those subgenres are all like that.

I still think the comparison between jazz and metal is a fair one. When people think of both of those genres, they don't necessarily think of the fairest representation of said genre.

[Danger Mouse]

Nah that was the point I was clumsily trying to make, that the "worst offenders" in metal are not representative of the genre (guys like me are) and you saying overly intellectualised music is there in "quite a lot of metal" is no more accurate than me saying a lot of Jazz is emotionless wank.

...(and quite a bit of metal TBH) has some pretty horrendous offenders

I only meant that quite a few of the metal sub-genres have some pretty horrendous examples of what I'm talking about. That's not to say that those subgenres are all like that.

I still think the comparison between jazz and metal is a fair one. When people think of both of those genres, they don't necessarily think of the fairest representation of said genre.

The comparison is fair and for all the generalised criticism of jazz wank, most, if not all, can be pointed squarely at metal too.

What has surprised me though, is the late 80s and early 90s were a breeding ground for that kind of bad playing, but something happened in the 2000s and metal on a whole just seemed to grow up. Suddenly metalcore and melodic death metal had all these guys that really were and are great musicians, who are obviously way more capable musically than some beer-addled meathead that can just play really fast ( ). Of course we still had Dragonforce and the like to counter that, admittedly, but finding those kinds of examples became difficult all of a sudden. Made me glad to be an active musician when I was because it was so much easier to get away with shit playing back then.

[mike]

DM indirectly brings something up that I find more and more difficult to understand in the modern musical landscape - the categorization of music to the extent that even though I have a reasonably good ear I can't tell the difference between the various offshoots in metal, jazz and, for want of a better word, electronic music.

I get the feeling that our society tends to categorise things as much in terms of social issues like - "this muso was influenced by that muso" - as in terms of instrumental/sound combinations, or lyrics/message/theme or structure (eg 12 bar blues, classical forms like the sonata (had to look it up just now)) etc. A lot of these things go to our perception rather than measureables.

In concrete terms, to my ears there is no perceivable difference between black metal or death metal, house music and deep house music or some forms of jazz. I notice that a lot of people don't count Deep Purple as a metal band, but to me they define metal because when I was a teenager on the Darling Downs, that was how we saw them, along with Sabbath and Led Zeppelin and Alice Cooper. Likewise, what passed for punk from the nineties had very little to do with the sound or social implications and roots or even the form of punk in the seventies.

Despite what I just wrote above I've given up on classifications, which usually lie at the heart of intellectualisation, dispute, judgement, lawyers bills and conflict.

One thing that computers are doing though, is to make it easier to write any kind of music and use any kind of sound that you damn well please with anyone on the planet willing to collaborate, without having to go blind squinting at a bodgy dot based notation system that is derived from a piano keyboard which is itself a compromise. I feel liberated by that.

Which brings me to Vince's sound bite above:

I really like it, probably more than Bitches Brew, even.

You can either get all intellectual about it or just hear it like it's some guys having this really good jam with some guy on trumpet.

I agree with the second line. For the first I would probably need to listen to both albums again at which point I suspect I might get stuck on the fence! Both of them have some really great moments!

[mike]

Here is Kraftwerk improvising over Autobahn in 1974 (sound quality not the best, musical interest high):

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNjwJLDic3o[/youtube]

[Vince]

I must admit I, too, really find it hard to tell one sort of metal from another. Which is not too terrible 'cause I don't like most metal anyway... I don't feel I'm missing out on much. The difference between "black" metal and "death" metal? No idea. No great interest in finding out either because I'd have to listen to a lot of Black and Death metal music and I don't really like it anyway.

Same as anything ending in "core". To me "core" is a shorthand way of saying "you won't understand why this is different to other types of 'cores'".

I think it's probably an age thing, younger people are always keen to define themselves by music and clothes and stuff like that. Little differences matter, because they're flags you serve under until you work out where you're going. And when you're older, you're usually more confident with who you are and those things matter less and less. A pair of shoes is just a pair of shoes and damned if you're going to spend three days camping out outside the shop to buy the latest design. That brand, that pair of shoes doesn't define you.

And music... well, music is whatever it is and you like it or you don't, and that's the important thing. And if some band you love puts out a shit album, you take it in your stride. Either by hoping that the next one will be better or by accepting that you're not married to those guys and their bad album is their problem, not yours.

I like feeling like this: when you play you have a lot more to bring to the table. You're not as constrained by style limitations. You're free(r).

Bit of a pain finding a quick reply when people ask "what sort of music do you do?" though

[bender]

I like feeling like this: when you play you have a lot more to bring to the table. You're not as constrained by style limitations. You're free(r).

Bit of a pain finding a quick reply when people ask "what sort of music do you do?" though

This is exactly why I started this thread- it seems a massive shame that a term that should really be a very general, catchall or umbrella description is perceived as nothing but intellectual wank, especially when the defining feature (to me anyway) is really about musicians feeding off each other (not in a zombie sense though).

But, yeah the need to categorize everything is pretty dumb really.

[Vince]

But, yeah the need to categorize everything is pretty dumb really.

One thing I found especially loathsome... there was one of the online social media things... MySpace, I think, that used to ask musicians "What bands do you sound like?"

I mean, I can understand that from the site's point of view trying to put things in some sort of order, and from the visitors who really like Led Zep and feel a bit adventurous (tomato sauce AND mustard on their hot dog! ) but really, most of the time I don't know what style I'm playing, let alone be able to name three bands I sound like. I'm sure I'm not the only one?

[bender]

One thing I found especially loathsome... there was one of the online social media things... MySpace, I think, that used to ask musicians "What bands do you sound like?"

Just answer the question with your own band name

[godgrinder]

I think it's probably an age thing, younger people are always keen to define themselves by music and clothes and stuff like that. Little differences matter, because they're flags you serve under until you work out where you're going. And when you're older, you're usually more confident with who you are and those things matter less and less

I found it has very little to do with age. It's mostly down to how much you are into a certain kind of music and/or how lazy/dumb you are. I know some 40-50yo's that understand little nursances between sub-sub-genres and 20yo's who can't even tell the differences between 2 distinct music genres.

And from a marketing point of view it's always good to have your music categorized so it's actually able to reach the crowd who are into that kind of stuff. It doesn't necessarily mean that you have to limit yourself to a certain set of rules within some genre, but it's always good to think about which crowd you would market to.

[Vince]

One thing I found especially loathsome... there was one of the online social media things... MySpace, I think, that used to ask musicians "What bands do you sound like?"

Just answer the question with your own band name

Hindsight. 20/20 vision. Etc.

[Danger Mouse]

It's funny talking about the need to categorise everything, I've met a few people who are so anti category they end up being just as precious as the people they're so against. ”I hate categories, they're so limiting, why does music always have to have a label? Why can't you just free, lose the boundaries and just make music?". Sure, but they can be just as annoying as the idiots I used to put up with arguing at great length whether Carcass were grind core or death metal.

For the most part I think categories are just a convenience. I can type metalcore into YouTube and find new music that's pretty much going hit the mark, but beyond that I don't really care and am certainly not limited by any of it (or if I am, I'm not bothered by it).

[godgrinder]

whether Carcass were grind core or death metal.

That really depends on which album you have in mind isn't it...

[alanp]

Carcass are "Where the fuck is my medical dictionary?!" metal.

[Danger Mouse]

whether Carcass were grind core or death metal.

That really depends on which album you have in mind isn't it...

Don't you start!

Carcass are "Where the fuck is my medical dictionary?!" metal.

Genuinely yes for Necroticism Descanting the Insalubrious.