Return of the Gibbons shocker thread!

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Re: Return of the Gibson shocker thread!

Post by GrantB »

Terexgeek wrote:
Hmm, smelly indeed, unfortunately if things end up nipples aimed ceiling-wise we will be force to endure a bank pruning models and range with only "profitable" models surviving. What that would look like I don't know. I have a feeling the overheads of the Custom shop may prove to be too much of a liability and the neatness of shipping high volumes of Epiphone brands from Asia from contracted factories will win. I am happy to be wrong.
There will be pain of some form, for sure.

It would be interesting to see the business unit P&L...I wouldn't be surprised if the Custom Shop was profitable, even with lower volumes. If they kept it simple and managed as you say, a refined range, I suspect the guitar brand would do nicely.

Henry will over value it though, drag it on, and his hand will ultimately be forced...my take.
"Man is the most insane species. He worships an invisible god and destroys a visible nature. Unaware that this nature he's destroying is this god he's worshipping." - Hubert Reeves

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Re: Return of the Gibson shocker thread!

Post by Terexgeek »

GrantB wrote:
Terexgeek wrote:
Hmm, smelly indeed, unfortunately if things end up nipples aimed ceiling-wise we will be force to endure a bank pruning models and range with only "profitable" models surviving. What that would look like I don't know. I have a feeling the overheads of the Custom shop may prove to be too much of a liability and the neatness of shipping high volumes of Epiphone brands from Asia from contracted factories will win. I am happy to be wrong.
There will be pain of some form, for sure.

It would be interesting to see the business unit P&L...I wouldn't be surprised if the Custom Shop was profitable, even with lower volumes. If they kept it simple and managed as you say, a refined range, I suspect the guitar brand would do nicely.

Henry will over value it though, drag it on, and his hand will ultimately be forced...my take.
I think you're right.
Tin arse!!

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Re: Return of the Gibson shocker thread!

Post by Terexgeek »

GrantB wrote:
Terexgeek wrote:
Hmm, smelly indeed, unfortunately if things end up nipples aimed ceiling-wise we will be force to endure a bank pruning models and range with only "profitable" models surviving. What that would look like I don't know. I have a feeling the overheads of the Custom shop may prove to be too much of a liability and the neatness of shipping high volumes of Epiphone brands from Asia from contracted factories will win. I am happy to be wrong.
There will be pain of some form, for sure.

It would be interesting to see the business unit P&L...I wouldn't be surprised if the Custom Shop was profitable, even with lower volumes. If they kept it simple and managed as you say, a refined range, I suspect the guitar brand would do nicely.

Henry will over value it though, drag it on, and his hand will ultimately be forced...my take.
It's probably my own bias, but from what I have seen, large investment bank(ers?) don't like large fixed overheads, even with reasonable profits. The old school of sell and outsource that I observed growing up may be waning however with more modern analysis methods capturing Intellectual Property and brand halo effects. I do hope you're right.
Tin arse!!

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Re: Return of the Gibson shocker thread!

Post by telefiend »

Terexgeek wrote:
telefiend wrote:
GrantB wrote:
Well, the Cort thing is a joke...but this isn't

https://www.nashvillepost.com/business/ ... me-rapidly

We can only speculate, but I think the balance sheet it the highest level will look pretty smelly in terms of liabilities. Buying legacy audio brands as Apple and others romp all over that space with consumer oriented solutions was a dumb decision. Henry is clearly operating outside his horsepower rating in making those decisions.

The guitar brand will survive though, I'm positive. It's too valuable.
Hopefully it all washes out with someone not stupid ending up in charge. Would love to see Gibson focussing on a smaller range of quality instruments, rather than knee-jerk and pathetic attempts at expansion and innovation.
This, but I think innovation needs to be artist driven, not "Let's build the next game changer". I am happy to be corrected but from the Telecaster to the 335 each step forward came from the players requesting a solution to a problem. Not the upper management producing what they think the market needs. If Gibson allows itself to be artist focussed, then innovation will come.
Gibson doesn't perhaps have the historical track record with this, but it would be nice.

Was the Les Paul SG redesign because of player requests, or a reaction to the popularity of the strat (that happened to work out)? Were players wanting those weird shredder things they made in the 80s, or was that just management seeing what was happening in the market?

And did anyone, anywhere, ask for the Moderne? :lol:

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Re: Return of the Gibson shocker thread!

Post by sty »

GrantB wrote: It would be interesting to see the business unit P&L...I wouldn't be surprised if the Custom Shop was profitable, even with lower volumes. If they kept it simple and managed as you say, a refined range, I suspect the guitar brand would do nicely.

Henry will over value it though, drag it on, and his hand will ultimately be forced...my take.
When I read a couple of articles over the weekend what struck me was the debt financing that they have got in place is crippling them and unless they get lucky will kill them currently.

After that it's just a challenge to see who can end up with the assets without the debt, and that fear is what will drive the banks or someone else to foreclose before it's too late.

The Gibson brand should survive, and the irony is that the more they offshore and outsource the builds of Gibsons (I suspect they'll have to follow Epiphone offshore etc.) I suspect the custom shop will be able to command even higher prices and could become highly profitable.

I think the huge focus at the moment (and I'm aware it seems to come from one real source) indicates that the end game is coming and someone is trying to shake someone big of interest to come out of the shadows and take everything over for some sort of compromise refunding before it all goes tits up.

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Re: Return of the Gibson shocker thread!

Post by Olderama »

Slash should dip into his slush fund and bail them out
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Re: Return of the Gibson shocker thread!

Post by Terexgeek »

telefiend wrote:
Terexgeek wrote:
telefiend wrote:
Hopefully it all washes out with someone not stupid ending up in charge. Would love to see Gibson focussing on a smaller range of quality instruments, rather than knee-jerk and pathetic attempts at expansion and innovation.
This, but I think innovation needs to be artist driven, not "Let's build the next game changer". I am happy to be corrected but from the Telecaster to the 335 each step forward came from the players requesting a solution to a problem. Not the upper management producing what they think the market needs. If Gibson allows itself to be artist focussed, then innovation will come.
Gibson doesn't perhaps have the historical track record with this, but it would be nice.

Was the Les Paul SG redesign because of player requests, or a reaction to the popularity of the strat (that happened to work out)? Were players wanting those weird shredder things they made in the 80s, or was that just management seeing what was happening in the market?

And did anyone, anywhere, ask for the Moderne? :lol:
And the Moderne wasn't produced when it was drawn up. When the limited editions were produced, later, they very much were in demand to the tiny niche that wanted them and the tiny volumes made reflect that. Let's not also forget the V and Explorer were flops when they were first released, and were not responses to artist requests but an attempt at "space age" design, top down fail.
The SG is best looked at as a more affordable solid body, something which was demanded by Gibson customers, and as it's the best selling Gibson guitar, illustrates my point precisely.
The weird shredder things of the eighties were also attempting to capitalise on the market for super strats, top down fail again.
So you're right, a patchy historical track record for sure!
Tin arse!!

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Re: Return of the Gibson shocker thread!

Post by telefiend »

Terexgeek wrote:
telefiend wrote:
Terexgeek wrote: This, but I think innovation needs to be artist driven, not "Let's build the next game changer". I am happy to be corrected but from the Telecaster to the 335 each step forward came from the players requesting a solution to a problem. Not the upper management producing what they think the market needs. If Gibson allows itself to be artist focussed, then innovation will come.
Gibson doesn't perhaps have the historical track record with this, but it would be nice.

Was the Les Paul SG redesign because of player requests, or a reaction to the popularity of the strat (that happened to work out)? Were players wanting those weird shredder things they made in the 80s, or was that just management seeing what was happening in the market?

And did anyone, anywhere, ask for the Moderne? :lol:
And the Moderne wasn't produced when it was drawn up. When the limited editions were produced, later, they very much were in demand to the tiny niche that wanted them and the tiny volumes made reflect that. Let's not also forget the V and Explorer were flops when they were first released, and were not responses to artist requests but an attempt at "space age" design, top down fail.
The SG is best looked at as a more affordable solid body, something which was demanded by Gibson customers, and as it's the best selling Gibson guitar, illustrates my point precisely.
The weird shredder things of the eighties were also attempting to capitalise on the market for super strats, top down fail again.
So you're right, a patchy historical track record for sure!
Also the reissuing of the Les Paul in the late 60's - remade the Goldtop instead of the bursts.

To be fair, there are probably not many guitar companies that haven't made these sorts of bad moves. Gibson is just one that doesn't seem to be learning.

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Re: Return of the Gibson shocker thread!

Post by werdna »

I'd love to see a breakdown of Gibson's financial performance on a product by product basis.

If Gibson can't afford the interest now, while it is low, how can they hope to survive in a year or two when interest rates will be a point or two higher?

The new high performance LPs are apparently facing rejection by guitarists. Such a shame, as they are uber cool - a good new product for a change. This statement may be controversial on the forum.
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Re: Return of the Gibson shocker thread!

Post by Terexgeek »

werdna wrote:I'd love to see a breakdown of Gibson's financial performance on a product by product basis.

If Gibson can't afford the interest now, while it is low, how can they hope to survive in a year or two when interest rates will be a point or two higher?

The new high performance LPs are apparently facing rejection by guitarists. Such a shame, as they are uber cool - a good new product for a change. This statement may be controversial on the forum.
I agree, they are cool, I can't afford them, but I dig the guitars.
Tin arse!!

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Re: Return of the Gibson shocker thread!

Post by werdna »

Terexgeek wrote:
werdna wrote:I'd love to see a breakdown of Gibson's financial performance on a product by product basis.

If Gibson can't afford the interest now, while it is low, how can they hope to survive in a year or two when interest rates will be a point or two higher?

The new high performance LPs are apparently facing rejection by guitarists. Such a shame, as they are uber cool - a good new product for a change. This statement may be controversial on the forum.
I agree, they are cool, I can't afford them, but I dig the guitars.
The Guitar Centre is selling them for $3.5US but so few of them are selling that they'll have to drop the price. And that'll push down the second hand market. Still they're never going to be cheap.
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Re: Return of the Gibson shocker thread!

Post by Terexgeek »

werdna wrote:
Terexgeek wrote:
werdna wrote:I'd love to see a breakdown of Gibson's financial performance on a product by product basis.

If Gibson can't afford the interest now, while it is low, how can they hope to survive in a year or two when interest rates will be a point or two higher?

The new high performance LPs are apparently facing rejection by guitarists. Such a shame, as they are uber cool - a good new product for a change. This statement may be controversial on the forum.
I agree, they are cool, I can't afford them, but I dig the guitars.
The Guitar Centre is selling them for $3.5US but so few of them are selling that they'll have to drop the price. And that'll push down the second hand market. Still they're never going to be cheap.
To be fair, neither they should be, cheap that is. I wonder how different it would have been if they had cultivated artist relations better (like PRS and Fender) and brought the changes through with artist support (like PRS with Mark Tremonti or Fender with the Ed O'Brien), rather than a general release like they did with Gibson's notoriously conservative buyers.
Gibson (new) buyers seem to be a fickle lot, PRS has been stretching the boundaries with elaborate dyes and unique shades for a while now, Gibson releases a new range of not particularly radical colours (compared to PRS) and you'd think they'd made them with images of murdered children on them.
Release a more ergonomic, more tonally flexible instrument, similar to what the rest of the guitar manufacturers have been doing for ages, the customer base lose their minds!
Tin arse!!

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Re: Return of the Gibson shocker thread!

Post by telefiend »

Terexgeek wrote:Gibson (new) buyers seem to be a fickle lot, PRS has been stretching the boundaries with elaborate dyes and unique shades for a while now, Gibson releases a new range of not particularly radical colours (compared to PRS) and you'd think they'd made them with images of murdered children on them.
Release a more ergonomic, more tonally flexible instrument, similar to what the rest of the guitar manufacturers have been doing for ages, the customer base lose their minds!
Tis true, they do seem to get a lot of flack.

I'd still take one of those 2015 hologram thing Gibsons over any PRS model you can name, though :lol:

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Re: Return of the Gibson shocker thread!

Post by Terexgeek »

telefiend wrote:
Terexgeek wrote:Gibson (new) buyers seem to be a fickle lot, PRS has been stretching the boundaries with elaborate dyes and unique shades for a while now, Gibson releases a new range of not particularly radical colours (compared to PRS) and you'd think they'd made them with images of murdered children on them.
Release a more ergonomic, more tonally flexible instrument, similar to what the rest of the guitar manufacturers have been doing for ages, the customer base lose their minds!
Tis true, they do seem to get a lot of flack.

I'd still take one of those 2015 hologram thing Gibsons over any PRS model you can name, though :lol:
And the market is better for having the choice I think. I enjoyed the blindfolded Capt Lee Andertons video where he picked his favourite single cut humbucker style guitar. While there wasn't any Fenders included and he ended up with his '58 custom shop, it was interesting how he rated the Reverend and even a Gibson Studio LP over quite a lot.

In an ideal world I would be able to afford having Gibsons and PRS and many others in my collection.
Tin arse!!

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Re: Return of the Gibson shocker thread!

Post by telefiend »

Terexgeek wrote:
telefiend wrote:
Terexgeek wrote:Gibson (new) buyers seem to be a fickle lot, PRS has been stretching the boundaries with elaborate dyes and unique shades for a while now, Gibson releases a new range of not particularly radical colours (compared to PRS) and you'd think they'd made them with images of murdered children on them.
Release a more ergonomic, more tonally flexible instrument, similar to what the rest of the guitar manufacturers have been doing for ages, the customer base lose their minds!
Tis true, they do seem to get a lot of flack.

I'd still take one of those 2015 hologram thing Gibsons over any PRS model you can name, though :lol:
And the market is better for having the choice I think. I enjoyed the blindfolded Capt Lee Andertons video where he picked his favourite single cut humbucker style guitar. While there wasn't any Fenders included and he ended up with his '58 custom shop, it was interesting how he rated the Reverend and even a Gibson Studio LP over quite a lot.

In an ideal world I would be able to afford having Gibsons and PRS and many others in my collection.
Totally. There's so much choice that complaining about a particular model does seem a bit silly when you can find one with the specs you like quite easily (whether used or new).

And if I ever end up getting a second electric, it'll most likely be an SG. Hopefully Gibson is still around then so I can assess their line up.

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