Cheap Floyd = Cheap Sound?

[Basket Case]

Before the wisecracks start, this has nothing to do with Dave Gilmour and co...

Basically, I bought a Washburn N2. It seems very lifeless, lacks sustain and just seems rather dull and mojo-less. Admittedly, it is a tad buzzy and needs a good setup, but I think the problem is more than that. It has Air Nortons in it, so the pickups shouldn't be the cause. I'm a bit suspicious of the cheap licensed floyd, as I don't feel much resonance in the body at all when I'm playing.

Is it worth upgrading the Floyd? Is this a drawback of floating trems? Is the N2 just a shitter? Is this the end for the dynamic duo...?

Personally, I hate the bloody things but I need one for the 80s metal thing I'm doing.

[johnny mullet]

In my understanding it has to be good quality floating bridge or not at all. Paul Gilbert went back to a hardtail setup because he believed the floating bridges lacked sustain. Personally I love my FR setup on mr Prestige and and I can really give it shit and it amazes me how it stays in tune.

[IkeKrull]

I dunno, i can't really see how the quality of the tremelo unit (assuming its not actually falling apart or has been beaten with a sledgehammer or something) )would affect the sound.

The only points of contact between the body of the guitar and the tremelo on a FR (or any non-blocked trem unit really, except the kahler i guess) are the spring screws and the knife-edges, and i'm having trouble believing that either of those are going to contribute significantly to sustain. A quality trem will tend to stay in tune better, move more smoothly, be constructed more solidly, and not break or corrode with abuse so much, but, barring the possible heavier construction, i dont think its going to make that much difference to the sound.

The knife edges might be worn, but i would expect more contact area, thus better vibration transfer when the trem is not in use in this case.

You might find adding or removing a spring contributes a different character, but i wouldnt expect the earth to move, sustain-wise.

Much more likely is your pickup magnets damping the string vibrations too much - how much distance have you got between pickups and strings - regardless of the answer, try winding the pickups down a few mm into the body, and see if you notice an improvement.

If your action is so low youre buzzing a lot, that will tend to kill sustain as well. and it might also pay to check that some monkey hasnt futzed round with shimming the neck. In short, set the guitar up properly.

It is possible that a bolt-on, floyded hair metal gat just isn't going to give you the big-balled sound youre after.

[slash-ed]

Maybe it's just a particularly crappy sounding piece of wood.

[borge]

i had a similar problem with my RG so i blocked it for dive only. so the tone block hard up against a bit of mahogany when the vibratos not being used, seemed to improve sustain noticeably at the expense of raising the pitch of course.
then again you probably need a couple racks, some spandex and a perm to get the most from these sorts of guitars

[ash]

Yes, Cheap Floyd = Cheap tone.

For some reason the material that trems are made of makes a much bigger difference than it does with fixed bridges. Perhaps because the trem is about all the strings are swinging off, being isolated form the body and all...

Cheap trems are generally made of a fairly low grade zinc alloy because its cheap and easy to cast. They put steel edges at the pivots, but its pretty crappy steel. Some have a steel base with zinc bits bolted to it, but they aren't much better. Free-machining steel is easy to work with (and thus a cheaper end product) because it has lead in it, but that is bad for lifespan, plating and damping. ie. Crap tone, while it lasts...

Schaller and most Floyd Rose trems are also a zinc base, but a harder alloy and they use hardened steel edges, often steel saddles and a brass spring block, which is where all the difference comes in. They sound miles better and because of the material quality, tend to last alot longer. Ibanez trems cover the whole range (there are more than 20 different Ibanez trem models, all are not created equal), but the decent ones on the Japanese guitars (Edge, Lo-Pro Edge, Edge Pro, Edge ZR) are a very good quality zinc alloy throughout with very good steel edges. They are considered to be quite "flat" sounding (in the EQ sense) compared to brass-block trems.
Top of the tree in the materials sense is the Gotoh GE1996 which is my preference. It has a hardened steel base and saddles, with a brass spring block and locking hardened steel studs. That mostly means they last forever and are very stable. In my experience they also tend to have more peaky midrange content than the others. The only problem with them is that they are not low-profile. On the other hand low-profile seems to be less important to players now than it was ten years ago.

[IkeKrull]

Well, i'm always willing to be educated in these matters, but i'd have to say i'm pretty damn skeptical that there is going to be an audible difference between a 'low quality' trem unit and a 'high quality' one when they're at rest.

I have no doubt a quality tremelo feels better, lasts longer, and holds tune better due to higher precision and better knife-edge, but will it make the guitar sound noticeably different? i'm just not convinced of that at all. If we're ascribing tonal quality to alloy compositions in the metal the trem blocks are cast from (when they don't even contact the body other than through the knife edge and posts), well, lets just say i'm unsure about the merits of that explanation, nor have i seen any information or even advertising claims that support the idea that some manufacturers use alloys chosen for their musical qualities in their tremelo units.

Surely the springs would have as much of an impact on tone as the block material, since ultimately any vibration in a floating trem block is going to be damped or sustained by the springs.

I dunno, maybe a tone clip that demonstrates the sonic superiority of a brass-blocked trem would convince me, as would a blindfolded listener correctly identifying different tremelos based on what theyre hearing,

I don't mean to be an asshole about this, and obviously you have a lot of experience with guitars, but if i can't rationalise it in my own head, i just can't believe it.

[slash-ed]

It's about the density, I would think...

[ash]

Gotoh, Hipshot, Schaller, ABM, Callaham and others all have products made with a choice of various materals specifically for tonal variation. Brass isn't better, just different. And in the case of the locking trems I mentioned before, a brass block in isolation probably isn't even the reason for a difference. The ones with brass blocks also happen to have steel saddles, which may well be the major cause of any tonal difference given their direct string contact. I happen to prefer the response of an all zinc Ibanez Edge to a brass/steel Gotoh GE1996 in the same guitar. And yes I have tried it and heard the difference. I can't however hear the more well documented differences between pressed steel and cast brass saddles on Fender trems. But lots of other people can.

Sure the springs have an effect, everything affects everything. But if all brands come with more or less the same springs, there is no difference. If the springs and fulcrums really isolated the vibration, the body material would be irrelevant. But its not.

The tonal differences are tiny, but they are there. Not everyone can hear them, but plenty can and plenty care about it. If Basket Case wants to test the idea with his N2, I have a Gotoh trem here ready for action.

[ash]

It's about the density, I would think...

Density is only one of the factors. This is far more complex than simple linear physics.
And the resolution of these effects is far finer than most people would normally expect.

Put your engineers hat on, Ed.
Resonance = mass, rigidity, damping

Form and density affect mass
Form and stiffness affect rigidity
Damping is the mystery key to tonal matters. Because the materials are often anisotropic and certainly not homogeneous, predicting it isn't straightforward. Now add frequecy to the mix. You now have a three dimensional problem which changes with position, frequency, and amplitude. Its messy.

[slash-ed]

My hat didn't come with any knowledge on resonance I guess I should have known that but my brain is not really functioning at full capacity at the moment.

Actually the hat is currently squeezing my brains rather tightly as I try to finish my somewhat painful assignment/report/drawing before tomorrow... Sigh.

[Basket Case]

The tonal differences are tiny, but they are there. Not everyone can hear them, but plenty can and plenty care about it. If Basket Case wants to test the idea with his N2, I have a Gotoh trem here ready for action.

Will be an interesting experiment at least. PM sent Ash.

[denden]

Hmm... i wonder what a guitar would sound like if played in a vacuum....

Anywho, i don't really know the engineering behind it, but i can tell ya that different kinds of floyds sound noticably different. The difference between the Edge on my ibanez and Floyd Rose 2 on the Squier is really noticable, the floyd rose 2 being way lighter to use, but the ibanez having more sustain (that may be due mostly to the construction of the body though...)

Pretty much, i played an Aria super strat, dual humbucking, bolt neck. My squier HM2 is a bolt next, HSS configuration super strat. The squier is nice to play, trem is easy to use, sounds great, reasonably amounts of sustain. Aria played nice, but sounded like a bag of arse holes and the notes died away real fast...

Pretty much cheap floyd does = cheap sound in my experience

[Basket Case]

Just came across this. Very expensive. I wonder if it makes as much difference as the price indicates?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Floyd-Rose-TITANIUM ... dZViewItem

[denden]

Just came across this. Very expensive. I wonder if it makes as much difference as the price indicates?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Floyd-Rose-TITANIUM ... dZViewItem

At a glance it looks like the guy has machined it himself... Titanium is a very hard, very light metal, dunno what that would do for sound, ash?