Room mic experimentation with the AFD100

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Room mic experimentation with the AFD100

Post by slash-ed »

So... when I did my experiments with the Kemper Profiling Amp I found that while it replicated the close-miked tone of my Marshall AFD pretty well, that single mic tone wasn't completely representative of the amp's real tone. I felt that it got all the treble and the bite but missed out on some of the low end chunk and thump.

Out of curiosity I recently picked up a Red12 mic from 12 Gauge Microphones (the ones mounted in little shotgun shells). It's an omni condenser, and I thought I'd use it as a room mic to get a more representative sound from the AFD.

Well, I think it worked!

However, because the Red12 can't take high SPL, I set it back about half a metre from one speaker. The other mic was an Audix i5, set 2-3 inches off the speaker. Both on axis.

When I sum them both I think I'm getting a bit of a phasing effect. How do I avoid this? Once I get a condenser that can take high SPL I can just chuck them both fairly close to the speaker, but if I had to use the Red12, how would I do it? Is there a spacing/distance formula or calculation? Or is just a trial and error spot type of thing.

On the other hand, when I panned the Red12 sound hard right, it sounds much "bigger" and awesome. And I think it really helps to capture the true tone of the AFD.

Anyway, I'll shut up now so you can hear for yourself.

Just the i5:



Both i5 and Red12 summed to centre:



i5 panned centre and Red12 to the right:



Keen to hear what you more experienced multi-mikers have to say! :)
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Re: Room mic experimentation with the AFD100

Post by badmotor »

Just as a side thing - what is the purpose of this? So you can throw it into a mix? Or just as a single-tone of your amp to show folks?

In a mix situation I think your direct i5 sound is good - your added room sound is taking away from that, as it is clear you aren't in a nice studio recording. You'd be better off eliminating the room for now, until you are in a nicer room - do you hear it?
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Re: Room mic experimentation with the AFD100

Post by slash-ed »

Interesting! Yup I agree that the i5 tone would work well in a mix. I guess it's for both applications really.

And no, I don't hear it - but I don't know what I'm listening for! What is it?

PS - if you're talking about the string noise, yes I do hear it. I was standing right next to the Red12, and I hit really hard. But that's easily solved by not standing right next to it?
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Re: Room mic experimentation with the AFD100

Post by badmotor »

slash-ed wrote:Interesting! Yup I agree that the i5 tone would work well in a mix. I guess it's for both applications really.

And no, I don't hear it - but I don't know what I'm listening for! What is it?
I can hear the sound of your room too much - there is a low-mid muddy-ness there that isn't necessarily attractive. You'd go to mix that with drums and double-tracking etc and you'd be trying to mix it out. You'd lose the 'punch' of your rhythm guitars. You might get nicer sounds moving that i5 around a bit more and really nail the spot where it sounds clear, yet full as well.
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Re: Room mic experimentation with the AFD100

Post by alanp »

Alan Parsons wrote:"Every engineer I've ever come across has always had the mic touching the cloth, and the first thing I do is move it away literally a foot. Let's hear what the amplifier sounds like, not what the cabinet sounds like... I might have it even further away if it's a really loud 4x12 cabinet — as much as four feet away."
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug07/a ... ording.htm

Interesting discussion here.
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Re: Room mic experimentation with the AFD100

Post by hamo »

I definitely liked the Red12 panned right. Having it centre almost seemed to add room reverb, which is cool if that's what you're going for, but doesn't do much to highlight the bite of the AFD.
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Re: Room mic experimentation with the AFD100

Post by slash-ed »

badmotor wrote:
slash-ed wrote:Interesting! Yup I agree that the i5 tone would work well in a mix. I guess it's for both applications really.

And no, I don't hear it - but I don't know what I'm listening for! What is it?
I can hear the sound of your room too much - there is a low-mid muddy-ness there that isn't necessarily attractive. You'd go to mix that with drums and double-tracking etc and you'd be trying to mix it out. You'd lose the 'punch' of your rhythm guitars. You might get nicer sounds moving that i5 around a bit more and really nail the spot where it sounds clear, yet full as well.
Which room sound mix in particular are you talking about? The summed one or the panned one?
alanp wrote:
Alan Parsons wrote:"Every engineer I've ever come across has always had the mic touching the cloth, and the first thing I do is move it away literally a foot. Let's hear what the amplifier sounds like, not what the cabinet sounds like... I might have it even further away if it's a really loud 4x12 cabinet — as much as four feet away."
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug07/a ... ording.htm


Interesting discussion here.
That looks like a very interesting discussion. I'll have to read it in depth when I have the chance.
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Re: Room mic experimentation with the AFD100

Post by badmotor »

slash-ed wrote: Which room sound mix in particular are you talking about? The summed one or the panned one?
The panned one - I can hear the actual room in that one, you could even try mixing less of that in. The summed one sounds hollow and out of phase I think.
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Re: Room mic experimentation with the AFD100

Post by Scooter13 »

badmotor wrote:
slash-ed wrote:Interesting! Yup I agree that the i5 tone would work well in a mix. I guess it's for both applications really.

And no, I don't hear it - but I don't know what I'm listening for! What is it?
I can hear the sound of your room too much - there is a low-mid muddy-ness there that isn't necessarily attractive. You'd go to mix that with drums and double-tracking etc and you'd be trying to mix it out. You'd lose the 'punch' of your rhythm guitars. You might get nicer sounds moving that i5 around a bit more and really nail the spot where it sounds clear, yet full as well.
I agree. You could try using the bathroom or your garage if you want to see how the room affects the sound as a comparison. It doesn't sound too out of phase to me (when you have 2 mics and the sound that hits the first one is hitting the second one out of phase), more that you have room reverb and that's what is muddying it up. As I understand it you need to move the room mic to where the phase is the same...by using your ears through some closed plugs I guess. Or really good maths :lol:

You should be able to get a bigger sound through the 1 close mic though IMO. For recording you may need to double track though to make it fuller sounding.
How I was shown to capture it (ymmv etc):
Get your looper going through the amp, making sure you have cab involvement in the sound ( I mean turned up loud to the point where the cab is working), play some nice chugs along with some big sounding rock chords and power chords and maybe some widdle (i.e. some guns n roses rhythm). Put your closed back head phones on and turn the volume on them up , then move your mic around until you hear it...that fine balance between singing highs without fizz and hiss and a decent amount of low end. (try angles, on/off axis, edge of dust cap to cone edge. Once you get the sound stop and set it up there.
This works better when you have someone moving the mic while you sit in another room listening to just the recorded sound...not getting blasted by the amp/cab.

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Re: Room mic experimentation with the AFD100

Post by bender »

I got a really nice sound from the Red12 by pulling it back from the cab as AlanP(arsons) suggests. You need a relatively dead room for that to work though- otherwise it'll get mushier as you get further away. Just try experimenting with the distance until you find the right point where the mic can handle the SPL but isn't backed off too far. A foot is probably a good starting point.

Be careful if you follow Scooter13's advice- that's a recipe for hearing damage if ever I saw it. Fine if you find a position quickly but if you spend more than a few minutes doing it like that your ears will be ringing. Just sayin'.

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Re: Room mic experimentation with the AFD100

Post by badmotor »

You will also quickly see why people like using amp sims in the bedroom. :D It's not easy getting all those factors right when you are in a residential home, or have flatties or whatever.
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Re: Room mic experimentation with the AFD100

Post by Timi »

slash-ed wrote:However, because the Red12 can't take high SPL, I set it back about half a metre from one speaker. The other mic was an Audix i5, set 2-3 inches off the speaker. Both on axis.

When I sum them both I think I'm getting a bit of a phasing effect. How do I avoid this? Once I get a condenser that can take high SPL I can just chuck them both fairly close to the speaker, but if I had to use the Red12, how would I do it? Is there a spacing/distance formula or calculation? Or is just a trial and error spot type of thing.
Yep trial and error, but in my experience the room mic needs to be a lot further back than half a meter for it not to sound weird with the close mic, definitely hearing that in your both summed to mono clip. As others have said unless the room sounds good it might not be worth it, you might have better luck faking it with a short room reverb with some predelay.

Panning the two out does sound bigger but if you were to double track and pan the two mics opposite you would probably lose lots of that bigness.

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Re: Room mic experimentation with the AFD100

Post by slash-ed »

Informative as always, thanks guys. :)

I think perhaps what I really want to be doing is close miking but with on axis and one somewhere else to get a bit of the low end back in. But I'll definitely try to experiment a bit with the Red12, and placement, and all that good stuff. Another whole new world to learn about, and not enough time!

To revise what I said before - this would largely be for the purposes of amp-demoing, to get a sound that better represents what it sounds like in real life. For a mix I am in agreement that the i5 alone tone would probably be best, and easiest to work with.
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Re: Room mic experimentation with the AFD100

Post by Scooter13 »

benderissimo wrote: Be careful if you follow Scooter13's advice- that's a recipe for hearing damage if ever I saw it. Fine if you find a position quickly but if you spend more than a few minutes doing it like that your ears will be ringing. Just sayin'.
Yeah, some decent closed back headphones are a must...I've heard of sound guys do it by using their ear up against the grill to find the approx sweet spot....obviously for a very short time, but still seems nuts to even try it! :crazy:

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Room mic experimentation with the AFD100

Post by Capt. Black »

What spl level can the 12 gauge mic take? Are you actually playing anywhere near that? Did I see you say you can hear your string plucks because you were standing next to it?

I reckon you can get it closer to the speaker without any risk of damage.
Being omni it will pick up some room sound regardless so play with the distances to find a better balance.

Phasing is a pain in the arse problem when mics are at different distances. If you're using the i5 for a brighter, focused sound, why not try positioning it right next to the omni?

The best way to find the optimal sound is to literally use you ears. Since you can't detach them, you need to move your head around in front of the speaker and listen for the sweetest spot then place your mics there. Try different distances as well as side to side or up and down. It doesn't need to be up loud so you won't kill your ears. When you've found the right place, it will sound good at any volume.

Have you got a means to reamp your guitar? Record some guitar parts via di then play it back through the amp so you can concentrate on sorting out mic posi.

In fact the first thing you should do is play back some stuff and move the amp around the room to find out where it sounds best.
(why does the first thing always get mentioned last?)

Go have some fun.

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