Question about playing live....

[jeremyb]

There are no dumb questions, only dumb people, but heres something thats been confusing me for a while, when people are playing live thru big amps which are then mic'd and mixed thru the PA whats the point in actually using a big amp if its going thru the PA? its just that I've been to a fair few gigs here in Chch over the years at the Dux where the vocals are drowned out by the guitars and drums, wouldn't it be better to use smaller amps and bump up the vocals?

[rocklander]

wouldn't it be better to use smaller amps and bump up the vocals?

IMO.. yes... but I'm a vocalist

it may be heresy to say it here, but it has even been recognised on this forum that the punters generally come to hear the vox because they can (attempt) to sing along.. the musos around the vox are what make the vox look good, but the punters really (by and large) want to hear the vox.

[rickenbackerkid]

There are no dumb questions, only dumb people, but heres something thats been confusing me for a while, when people are playing live thru big amps which are then mic'd and mixed thru the PA whats the point in actually using a big amp if its going thru the PA? its just that I've been to a fair few gigs here in Chch over the years at the Dux where the vocals are drowned out by the guitars and drums, wouldn't it be better to use smaller amps and bump up the vocals?

100 % true my friend. My amp is 50 watts, 4x10, which is big! But I won't sell it, and don't have the cash to replace it. I am working on a 15 watter though.

[Rog]

I agree with you, rocky. Instrumental ability only goes so far before it all becomes very boring.

On topic, I've said it before, but I really do prefer vocals only in the PA and amps all sounding as they do without going through the desk for small to medium gigs. It's all personal opinion and obviously for bigger gigs, a large PA with good mixing and everything going through the desk is best to get the sound out there.

[Basket Case]

A few quick reasons

1- Rock drummers can be animals. So can bass players for that matter.
2- A 30 watt amp with el84s doesn't sound the same as a 50-100 watt amp with el34s or 6l6s and generally wont cut it for hard rock/metal/punk (I'm just waiting for everyone to butt in with "exceptions"). I might be able to cover Bryan Adams with a Classic 30, but it aint gonna do Metallica.
3- A little amp will sound little on stage.
4- Half stacks look cool.

[Rog]

So can bass players for that matter.

Except for Rog - he's a real gent! I know you meant to put that in there, right?

[Danger Mouse]

A few quick reasons

1- Rock drummers can be animals. So can bass players for that matter.
2- A 30 watt amp with el84s doesn't sound the same as a 50-100 watt amp with el34s or 6l6s and generally wont cut it for hard rock/metal/punk (I'm just waiting for everyone to butt in with "exceptions"). I might be able to cover Bryan Adams with a Classic 30, but it aint gonna do Metallica.
3- A little amp will sound little on stage.
4- Half stacks look cool.

Agree on all of the above, although it can be a problem when your half stack only starts sounding good at about 5 on the master volume, which is already so loud the front row of your audience has run away screaming... not that you'll be able to hear them scream.

Half stacks of 100W or so are also good at getting the drummer to shut the fuck up, just turn it around, aim it at him and crank to the master volume to 10... have had to do that more than a few times...

[Rog]

I know this sounds very weird, but I've done it before with big gear in small venues and it works: Turn the amp speakers to face the wall, or lie it on its back, pointing at the ceiling. Then you can crank to that sweet spot and its not projecting straight out front and fewer peeps complain..

[mr_sooty]

I have a PV Classic 50 410 and a 22w Deluxe Reverb RI. The DRRI is perfect for miking because I can turn it up a little more. Having said that, I still get asked to turn down on stage so the sound guy can have more control out front. Or else we put our amps back stage and use in-ear monitors. But I agree, with modern PA systems, large amps are becoming a little redundant. I love the sound of my Classic 50, but it has hardly left the house since I got my DRRI. Maybe if was playing outdoors with no PA I'd need the C50, but I can't imagine many other scenarios where the DRRI wouldn't cut it.

[thehenderson]

At a show with everything fully miced, amps are for foldback purposes

[sgt mukuzi]

amps up at volume close to what the P.A is putting out, a smige of gat and bass thru the P.A panned accross from where the amp is on stage. amp on the left, pan the amp to the right but only a little.
bass drum and snare thru the p.a, a smidge of over heads centre.
vox thru the P.A mostly about 80%

on most stages i`m used to a 100watt amp is way way to over the top, once that thing is cranked its killing the vocal and it makes it allmost impossible to get the vocals loud enough, the foldback is way under power compared to a 100watt marshall going full tit

[jeremyb]

Half stacks do look cool

[jeremyb]

on most stages i`m used to a 100watt amp is way way to over the top, once that thing is cranked its killing the vocal and it makes it allmost impossible to get the vocals loud enough, the foldback is way under power compared to a 100watt marshall going full tit

Describes pretty much every gig I've ever been to at the dux, really pisses me off cause as much as I like guitars and drums and bass I want to hear what the singer is singing not have some quiet mumbling beneath the roar of 6 strings and toms.

[Capt. Black]

It's mostly a matter of experience.

I reckon most guys with 50 or 100 watt half stacks are just fish out of water on stage. Face it, they buy their master volume multi channel rigs and dial up all their sound at a level that doesn't get them thrown out of home. They'll go a bit louder in the practice room but when they finally get on a decent stage the acoustics are so different it's a shock to them. They're no longer facing their band mates and there's no walls bouncing the sound back at them. So the first thing that happens is they turn up until they can hear themselves again. Problem is that an amp with the master on two often sounds completely different with the master on 5 or more. So with 15 minutes to do a sound check and your amp is sounding all wrong things get a little crazy.
In their defence, it can be really unsettling to not be able to hear your own amp as you expect it to sound so I think it takes a fair number of gigs for a lot of guys to get over that.

Another thing which gets overlooked is the speakers. It's pretty well understood that your common old Marshall 4x12 is pretty directional and usually sound best at about 1-1.5 metres out and 5 foot 9 up. On stage it's likely to be near ear height to the audience which can sound screechy horrible.
On top of that I reckon the standard G12T-75s in them are fine at practice volumes but can become the most evil screaming bastard of a speaker at stage volume. Especially if you like your tops dialed in.

Guys like BG, Strayfalcon, Machina and Danger Mouse have all booked a session at the Manor to crank their amps and get to know how they sound up loud. They'll figure out what settings sound good at different volume levels and that way they have a better starting point for a given situation.
Haha, that's not meant to sound like a plug for the Manor although all are welcome to enquire.
It's just if you want to know your gear intimately, why not get a room?

[The Scarecrow]

4- Half stacks look cool.

That covers a relative portion of guitar-stage-egotism right there, myself included.

I use a 100w M/V amp if only for having a decent amout of clean headroom, especially lately since I've started playing a lot more clean rhythm on newer tracks. I used to use a couple of amps rated between 20-50w but I found the clean headroom wasn't what I needed.

Additionally, I found a 1x12 or single speaker setup just wasn't giving me the projection I wanted. On the opposite end of the scale, a 4x12 was a little too much and since moving to a 2x12 cab, i've found my happy medium.