Are digital modelers killing tube amps?

[TmcB]

Once you get past the rhetoric of trolls and zealots the only problem that remains with modellers is that they are normally setup to produce the sound of a miced up amp in another room.

exactly. in a nutshell.

Once you get past the rhetoric of trolls and zealots the real problem that remains with modellers is that they don't sound as good - they lack a dynamism that an analog rig has, and have a weird compressed thing going on in the mids, like it's been flattened somehow.

That video Reg18 put up nails the difference for me. That is how modelled guitar amps have always sounded to my ear.

[TmcB]

Apart from turning it off and on again what are you really gonna do without a tech?

Learn how to do it yourself?

I think that with good safety routines and healthy respect of the voltages in there, there's nothing stopping anyone from doing it themselves.
I might be an odd case who is dumb enough to try these things though.


Three Rules:

- Discharge caps and measure it. If can't remember if you discharged the caps, discharge the caps and measure it.
- Don't leave it plugged in the wall
- One hand in your back pocket at all times.

Or best choice give it to a tech

That's not as sweat-inducing though.

Well, depends on how finely-tuned his wallet emptying skills are.

[Olderama]

Learn how to do it yourself?

I think that with good safety routines and healthy respect of the voltages in there, there's nothing stopping anyone from doing it themselves.
I might be an odd case who is dumb enough to try these things though.


Three Rules:

- Discharge caps and measure it. If can't remember if you discharged the caps, discharge the caps and measure it.
- Don't leave it plugged in the wall
- One hand in your back pocket at all times.

Or best choice give it to a tech

That's not as sweat-inducing though.

Well, depends on how finely-tuned his wallet emptying skills are.

True i think tho when you have suffered from a bolt from an electrical item it kinda puts you off

[TmcB]

Or best choice give it to a tech

That's not as sweat-inducing though.

Well, depends on how finely-tuned his wallet emptying skills are.

True i think tho when you have suffered from a bolt from an electrical item it kinda puts you off

Yes, it's not a fun experience but some of us are dumb enough to get back to the plate.

You can't really be the cavalier type with them it's true.

[StratMatt]

I'm still blissfully camped in AX8 territory. It's not the same no, but it's so good for live use. No pedals to faff about with, nothing to mic. Just well tuned presets that ARE dynamic, sit well in the band mix once equalised, easy to send to FOH and everything fits in a backpack.

I think I've turned my MkV on about four times since I bought it. I feel guilty..

[Lawrence]

Once you get past the rhetoric of trolls and zealots the only problem that remains with modellers is that they are normally setup to produce the sound of a miced up amp in another room.

exactly. in a nutshell.

Once you get past the rhetoric of trolls and zealots the real problem that remains with modellers is that they don't sound as good - they lack a dynamism that an analog rig has, and have a weird compressed thing going on in the mids, like it's been flattened somehow.

That video Reg18 put up nails the difference for me. That is how modelled guitar amps have always sounded to my ear.

\

[insert name here] I thought you were smarter than that. I apologise for calling you out. (note Ive edited out the name to eb nice)

This vid is not a legitimate comparison - it is a deliberate and obvious attempt to make a modeller sound bad. I have never used used Bias. If this is what sounds like at best then it is clearly crap. This discussion should be kept factual and genuine not premised on bullshit like this vid is.

Specifically, it should only compare amps and pedals with matching models. Secondly, given every analog and valve device is variable in the sound from a particular setting any comparison should attempt to tweak to match tones.
Now, I see no value in copying tones..its a sign of a lack of creativity. BUT, if you are saying that a product is not a high quality deice on the basis of this video you are deluded!

The only valid comparison would be done like this:
An amp that s as close as possible to the model age, condition, and usage of the actual amp modeled should be compared to the model.
A cabinet of the matching type, age and condition to the actual modeled cabinet should be used.
A mic of the same type, age and condition should be placed in the exact position and distance to the actual one used to model the cab. The sound should be recorded through identical preamps and played back through identical monitors.
before any comparison the settings should be tweaked to recognise hat no two amps off a production line sound the same.
only after thus rigorous process could any comparison be valid.

Im not trying to be argumentative just valid in the process .

There is no one on this (or any other forum) who can listen to a live band at a gig or a album recording and say with confidence that they are hearing a genuine amp or a model. There have been many tracks recorded on successful blues and roots albums using Pods....and many with the guitar plugged straight into the desk!

I can say with absolute confidence that I have heard many players with top line gear who have awful tones,...including international artists.

Lets at least keep the conversation on a professional level.

[Slowy]

Three Rules:

- Discharge caps and measure it. If can't remember if you discharged the caps, discharge the caps and measure it.
- Don't leave it plugged in the wall
- One hand in your back pocket at all times.

And never solder in your underpants.

[JHorner]

Yeesh, 5 pages of comments? OK fine I'll read the article linked to by OP.

/Article concludes no, modellers are not killing valves, they coexist
//JB trolled us all

[Lawrence]

dang I used quote...kinda kills my attempt not to be picking on individuals...sorry about that,

[TmcB]

exactly. in a nutshell.

Once you get past the rhetoric of trolls and zealots the real problem that remains with modellers is that they don't sound as good - they lack a dynamism that an analog rig has, and have a weird compressed thing going on in the mids, like it's been flattened somehow.

That video Reg18 put up nails the difference for me. That is how modelled guitar amps have always sounded to my ear.

\

[insert name here] I thought you were smarter than that. I apologise for calling you out. (note Ive edited out the name to eb nice)

This vid is not a legitimate comparison - it is a deliberate and obvious attempt to make a modeller sound bad. I have never used used Bias. If this is what sounds like at best then it is clearly crap. This discussion should be kept factual and genuine not premised on bullshit like this vid is.

Specifically, it should only compare amps and pedals with matching models. Secondly, given every analog and valve device is variable in the sound from a particular setting any comparison should attempt to tweak to match tones.
Now, I see no value in copying tones..its a sign of a lack of creativity. BUT, if you are saying that a product is not a high quality deice on the basis of this video you are deluded!

The only valid comparison would be done like this:
An amp that s as close as possible to the model age, condition, and usage of the actual amp modeled should be compared to the model.
A cabinet of the matching type, age and condition to the actual modeled cabinet should be used.
A mic of the same type, age and condition should be placed in the exact position and distance to the actual one used to model the cab. The sound should be recorded through identical preamps and played back through identical monitors.
before any comparison the settings should be tweaked to recognise hat no two amps off a production line sound the same.
only after thus rigorous process could any comparison be valid.

Im not trying to be argumentative just valid in the process .

There is no one on this (or any other forum) who can listen to a live band at a gig or a album recording and say with confidence that they are hearing a genuine amp or a model. There have been many tracks recorded on successful blues and roots albums using Pods....and many with the guitar plugged straight into the desk!

I can say with absolute confidence that I have heard many players with top line gear who have awful tones,...including international artists.

Lets at least keep the conversation on a professional level.

I'm really not smarter than that, and you're welcome to name me – I'm pretty sure we'd argue this over a beer (in fact I think we already have?)

There's an inherent difference here in goals that I think needs to be appreciated.
That video's intent is "can we get these two to sound the same, and which one sounds better". The answers were "no" and "the analog rig", at least to my ears.

What isn't the intent is "does analog gear sound totally awesome and modelling/emulation total pooze?" Modelling/emulation does not sound bad, and in fact both setups sounded pretty great in that video - if I couldn't see what was up, I may not have been able to tell as easily what was being played. A big difference is that analog gear has some limitations built in that stop you from sounding totally awful most of the time – most modelling gear you can do whatever you want so a lot of getting good toanz comes down to the ability and tonality of the operator.

The deal is that much like that video I am also not arguing that modelling can sound really superb. I just don't like anything about the whole setup, I don't get inspired by shuffling through menus, there is always something about playing through a modelled rig that I don't gel with, and I never feel it's *quit*e as nice as a good ol' valve rig. It does feel slightly lacking dynamically but that's a playing preference.

[TmcB]

dang I used quote...kinda kills my attempt not to be picking on individuals...sorry about that,

HA! You know I wouldn't care

[Slowy]

........ the only problem that remains with modellers is that they are normally setup to produce the sound of a miced up amp in another room. This never feels the same as standing in front of an amp. Users who do not use the power and and speaker modelling but run a modelled preamp into power amp and guitar cab say its perfect.

You are correct in your observations; I warned that my post was barely relevant.
The point above is news to me. Will take it on board. I don't actually care what I play through. What I care about is the sound and feel. I'm going through a phase of finding so much tonal variation in my fingertips. Picks work for some things but when it comes to lead or picked lines, my fingers sound so much better. All I want is something that can translate all those differences in attack and pressure into a voice.
So far, the Jansen is the clear winner. Best amp I've ever had.

[philly]

it's all bollocks..
my kemper has paid for itself 10 times over...for the stuff i do...
would i use it live ?.. shit no.
when line6 came out (20?) years ago i used those for film stuff.. cos they were "good enough" .. and you could go from an ac30 to a plexi to a fender.. brilliant.
no .. not brilliant ..."good enough"
when i play a kemper through my monitors now... say..with the amp factory lazy j amps... i get the same joy that i would playing through a mic'd up one..in a big studio.."in the other room" as it were..
if you want to shift some air.. make your flared trousers flap...use a real amp

i'm just starting to realise how that whole ford vs holden thing started up here..

[Slowy]

if you want to shift some air.. make your flared trousers flap...use a real amp

Key point that.

[null_pointer]

Cool, flared trousers - you have a source? Been meaning to update my wardrobe