Wanted: Cheap set of PAF's

[Rog]

Stop pissing around and spend some REAL money!
http://www.trademe.co.nz/a.aspx?id=385095984

[sizzlingbadger]

The whole PAF thing is way more than just tone...

Yes it is, they are collectable like old cars, but not necessarily any better than modern ones and sometimes worse

[Aquila Rossa]

Does the POD HD have PAF patches?

[ash]

I reckon it's mostly not about tone.

In the same way that stamp collecting is not about posting letters.

[Slowy]

Ok, risking a TL:DR, here's a brief excerpt from the articles I mentioned.
Keep in mind that this refers to two PAF's from a detailed study of 7 PAF's fitted in varying combinations into a number of Les Pauls and 6 original, unmolested 1959 Sunbursts.

"Two additional PAFs measuring
7.68K and 7.71K proved to be our personal favorites, both sounding
exceptional in the neck and bridge. They embodied everything we find so rare
and appealing in PAFs –clarity with stunning string
definition, percussive bloom emerging from the initial pick
attack, brilliant sustain held aloft by open and airy harmonic
content, tremendous treble presence in the bridge with rocksolid
lows on the bottom strings, and a bigger than life vocal
personality in the neck completely lacking the muffled and
muted tone of typical replica PAFs. “Warm, sweet compression?”
Hardly.
In our experience, great PAFs are utterly
majestic, extremely animated and endowed with an overwhelming
character that, once heard, is unforgettable.
Bright, yes, but ‘sweet’ they are not."

[GrantB]

And with a hint of French oak.....

[Vorbis]

And with a hint of French oak.....

It's got a good nose with fruity overtones.

[Slowy]

And with a hint of French oak.....

Aye.. but when you spend this much cash, you have to be a cork sniffer.

[handlefras]

At a guess:

Resistance:
Of each coil (mismatched windings or even)
Total resistance of both coils combined

Magnet:
Alnico type (or ceramic for the distortion?)
Magnet dimensions
Finished/rough
Guass

Wire:
Gauge
Coating (PE or Poly)

Winding:
I don't know about SDs winding machines, but I'm guessing they would have different speeds and traverse set for each pup. Tension would be a factor also, but is perhaps standard.

These might be the same for all the pups mentioned:
Bobbin/Coil height
Slug and screw metal

Looking at it this way, there are certainly a lot of factors involved. Ash, am I close?

[jeremyb]

I believe they wound them by hand until the bobbins were full, hence the variability, tone is so subjective anyway, wouldn't turn down a nice LP with a pair of them in it tho

[Capt. Black]

I thought part of the mystique was that none of them sounded quite the same? This'd make it hard for a defender of a PAF-copy to claim that it sounds JUST like a PAF, since it isn't going to sound like every PAF out there.

I think that individual variability aside, the general characteristics of any guitar, amp, mic model or whatever, is broadly the same. When people talk of going into US guitar shops and trying out 20 LPs until they find one they like, doesn't make the others any less distinguishably an LP. If you walked into Jim Marshalls shop in the sixties, you could probably try and buy your pick of the amps in store. Components reputedly changed from one production run to the next but they were always pretty much the same sound. You knew what you were buying and if you bought three, (a la Hendrix) you probably had your favorite. But that didn't mean the rest were duds.

Vintage gear "Mystique" comes from relative scarcity. How many of us have tried an actual 50s or 60s LP? A genuine Marshall Plexi? An early AC30? I have. But so long ago now I couldn't begin to remember what they were like!
Back in the late 70s and early 80s you could walk into AK shops like Kingsley Smith and try a selection of second hand LPs, SGs, Strats, Fender twins etc. Fat chance of that now. At best we can have a go on a "Re-issue". Without a genuine oldie to compare against we just have to trust the sales blurb.
Having said that, the better re-issues often do successfully capture the broad spirit of the vintage gear they're modeled on. I'm thinking Marshall Hand wired series and some of the Gibson and Fender models. Likewise with many pedals modeled on vintage designs. Whether they're exactly the same as the old gear or not, they're often something special in their own right simply by following those old classic design and construction principals.

YMMV TL:DR Some other stuff...

[ash]

At a guess:

..

Looking at it this way, there are certainly a lot of factors involved. Ash, am I close?

Close to half

You got the basics and some clever stuff. The things you listed are enough to get PAF-ish at least, but there is a mind boggling level of detail within each of those parameters. Not all matter than much, but some things make the difference between PAF-ish and OMG-THAT'S-THE-BEST-PAF-CLONE-I'VE-EVER-HEARD.

For example, Gauss values are important for predicting any pickup's tone, but what about breaking that down another level to not simply the Gauss figure, but where along the decay curve you're at? Or how the Gauss varies along the length of the pickup?

Not just whether the magnet is Alnico or ceramic, but which version of each? What is the porosity of that particular batch? How well does the composition match the ideal values for critical elements?

Not just the tension, but how does the tension vary throughout the coil and from side to side?

In my opinion going to this level of detail is a silly waste of time in most cases, but it is what makes the difference to the corksniffy types. My solution to that dilemma is to not bother trying to clone something that far cleverer people have so far failed to do.

[ash]

I believe they wound them by hand until the bobbins were full, hence the variability, tone is so subjective anyway, wouldn't turn down a nice LP with a pair of them in it tho

Gibson used Leesona automatic coil winding machines on PAFs. They have a traverse machanism that gives a specific winding pattern with unique quirks that are apparently critical to the mojo that everyone wants (so says a guy who uses an ex-Gibson Leesona). Gibson also used a bodged together DIY machine for later pickups when production had increased.

Fender was the one that handwound their coils, although they counted the turns. Gibson filled the bobbins.

[GrantB]

Going back to your DiMarzio trademark comment Ash, to my ears the best PAF clone I have heard actually was a DiMarzio. I rate their stuff.

[capt abaham]

the guitar I bought last week has an old set of nickle cover gibson pick ups with the patent number stamped onto the base, is there a way to work out the model without pulling the covers off?
they measure about 7.6k and 7.3k, both sound great and have allot of range within the parameters of the volume and tone control