Shred

[vacant]

I'd pay for those recordings to sell on ebay or the DF forum, that'd be most excellent.

[Tsuken]

Shred = a term I hate, probably because it's usually used in a derogatory fasion by people without the technical ability to do what they're calling shred

There is no magic trick or shortcut (dammit Jim); the metronome stuff that others have already mentioned is an important part. The one thing I would add is to take a line/phrase you can't play and slow it down - liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiike aboooooooooouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis sloooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwww Seriously so slowly that there is absolutely no thought or effort involved in playing it absolutely perfectly. Concentrate on moving both hands as little as possible. Play it many many times at that slow speed, without even trying to speed up. Play it so many times you think you'll go insane because it's so slow. Then you may well find you can play it fast. That's how I got the dimished arpeggios from 1:03 in my song "The Breach" (it's on my myspace page) happening: I played them mind-numbingly slowly about 20 times in a row. Then just hit record and did them up to speed - having failed dismally many times before.

[Capt. Black]

Wax on, wax off... wax on, wax off... wax on, wax off...

... six days later...

wax on, wax off... wax on, wax off... wax on, wax off...

[Tsuken]

yep I've always had trouble practising things that don't sound musical, so if you're like me in that regard, a helpful thing would be to find pieces of music that are technically difficult and practise with them.

[slash-ed]

Weird as it may sound.. sometimes maybe it's good to shift your focus if you can't seem to get one technique down...

For instance, for all these years I've never really been able to get sweep picking at all, partially due to bad coordination and just laziness in general. But over the past year I've been concentrating on my picking technique (I hesitate to say alternate picking, since I only recently realised what I actually do is called economy picking haha) a lot, and I guess it's helped with my overall control - I seem to be getting this sweep picking thing a bit better now

Not quite at 6-string diminished dive bomb tapped legato pinch harmonic sweeps of death yet though

[Capt. Black]

When I was young it would have been;
Wax on, wax o.... FUCK THIS MR MIAGI! I'm gonna play punk and chase drunk chicks.

[Tsuken]

The whole 20 years or whatever i've been "seriously" playing guitar it's been "wax on ... ah screw it I'll play solos over the radio or my ZZ Top records".

I've had moments of more technical focus - the most recent one was the longest-lasting, at a few months of focused practising. It hasn't really lasted however .. although my wee girl's arrival might just have something to do with that.

[Vorbis]

I thought shred died along with hair-metal in the late 80's?

[Gelato]

I thought shred died along with hair-metal in the late 80's?

hair metal died in the 80's? Damnit, I never got that memo. Better start playing blues or something

[Capt. Black]

It's not easy, it takes a lot of practice.

Those that say it's pathetic, or soul-less, etc., 102% of the time can't actually play fast so have to put down people that can. Classic "small man's syndrome"

Yo G, I'm a pretty BIG man.




It's funny this discussion always comes around and those that can get defensive because those that can't get offensive. But I don't think that's what is intended. I reckon the real sentiment from those of us that can't (or won't) is to say 'wow that's great skills you got there, now please do something great with them'.

Every time the discussion comes around, on or off the forum, I try to find a new way to put my thoughts across and hope like hell they're taken as an encouragement to go beyond acquiring mere skills.
So until the next time this discussion rolls around, here's my latest attempt to explain what us can't-do's possibly really think and hope for...

On this whole shred - wang thing, the real talent is to wrap the skills up in a song or piece of music. A context if you will. From what I've heard Tsuken and Gelato (and ascend, whatever happened to ascend?) have demonstrated nicely what's possible. At least in my opinion.
By the way that collaboration thing you guys did still runs regularly on the iPod in my head.

I reckon the so called shred-wang that gives the form a bad name can be compared to say, a Jon Woo movie. It's straight into non stop relentless action, perhaps with a moment of relative quiet half way through to allow the second half of the relentless action to have some impact again. Plot, story and character development are a distant second on the directors mind.
You know you are watching a masterful action director in... action(!) and you can see the skill involved and it is really enjoyable for a while but eventually it'll wear you down and ultimately leaves the viewer unsatisfied. This is a good example. I must have seen about 3 or 4 Jon Woo movies and I can remember lots of slo-mo scenes of a guy holding a gun and diving away from huge flames but I can't remember the movie name or the story line. I remember Face Off because it was the first Woo movie I saw. It was really impressive. But by the time I saw MI:2 it was just sad. The same thing over and over again and just trying to be more extreme than before and at the expense of the story and plot. Woo was spared the effort of character development because it was a sequel. Any thing that tries to ape the Woo style just falls into the sad laughable parody basket.
On the other hand, some one like Louis leterrier/Luc Besson with the movie Unleashed/Danny the Dog gives so much breathing space around the action and allows the characters to evolve that you are constantly anticipating the next amazing scene and wondering how they could top the opening action sequences, which are, in my not so humble opinion, some of the best ever filmed. As a viewer your sympathy for the characters is constantly shifting as you learn more of the back story, whether it is shown or implied and in the end you are left wishing the film didn't have to end. Or bettter still, hoping there's a sequel. Now you want to find more Besson and Leterrier movies, more Jet Li movies and you renew your appreciation for old actors Morgan Freeman and Bob Hoskins.

So what's my point here?

There is nothing wrong with playing like a sprinting ninja. The speed and skill are awesomely impressive to those of us too fat and lazy to do it ourselves. But it gets old really quick when it's done for it own sake. Jon Woo style.

But give the skills a suitable vehicle. A context. Space to breath, less is more, build anticipation, and you can listen to it again and again. And you want to find more from the creators of the music.
To me that's what it's all about.

Another example, while I'm on a roll. The Led Zep song Since I've Been Loving You. Pretty much everyone likes it. The lead break is absolutely exquisite. Probably the reason I never skip this song is because I know that lead break is coming and it always gives me a buzz. but half the buzz comes from anticipation. They take so fucking long to arrive at the lead break that you're just about gonna smash the stereo if they don't hurry up. But then it arrives and it is good and it goes on for ages, but when it ends you don't want it to stop. But the end of the song is all huge and I always have to listen to it all the way through.
BUT, if I skip straight to the lead break, it's just not the same. I can't be arsed listening to it. There's no thrill from the anticipation. It's that whole vehicle wrapped around the lead break that makes it a great piece of music.

Sorry about that stream of crap but if any shredders ever wonder why people who can't shred might be down on them sometimes, it's all there in what I just described. It's not the skills it's how you use it.
Listening to guys on this forum I'm frequently blown away by some great guitarists but I don't want to learn how to play like them. I can enjoy what they play for what it is.
Then again if I hear someone playing what they learned from copying someone else they'll lose me in the first 30 seconds. And by copying I don't mean learning a technique or a style, everybody has to do that to grow. (Why, I've even stolen bits of Tsuken's stuff since I've heard him play. Fortunately he won't recognise any of it because it's so skilfully disguised beneath my own lumbering lead style.) I mean note for note learn the solo. I know I shouldn't be down on that because it does feel good to achieve that level of skill.

But on the inside I'll be screaming, IF YOU"RE THAT GOOD, MAKE UP YOUR OWN SOLO! and wrap it in a song that frames it to best possible effect.

Peace.

[slash-ed]

I reckon the so called shred-wang that gives the form a bad name can be compared to say, a Jon Woo movie. It's straight into non stop relentless action, perhaps with a moment of relative quiet half way through to allow the second half of the relentless action to have some impact again. Plot, story and character development are a distant second on the directors mind.
You know you are watching a masterful action director in... action(!) and you can see the skill involved and it is really enjoyable for a while but eventually it'll wear you down and ultimately leaves the viewer unsatisfied. This is a good example. I must have seen about 3 or 4 Jon Woo movies and I can remember lots of slo-mo scenes of a guy holding a gun and diving away from huge flames but I can't remember the movie name or the story line. I remember Face Off because it was the first Woo movie I saw. It was really impressive. But by the time I saw MI:2 it was just sad. The same thing over and over again and just trying to be more extreme than before and at the expense of the story and plot. Woo was spared the effort of character development because it was a sequel. Any thing that tries to ape the Woo style just falls into the sad laughable parody basket.
On the other hand, some one like Louis leterrier/Luc Besson with the movie Unleashed/Danny the Dog gives so much breathing space around the action and allows the characters to evolve that you are constantly anticipating the next amazing scene and wondering how they could top the opening action sequences, which are, in my not so humble opinion, some of the best ever filmed. As a viewer your sympathy for the characters is constantly shifting as you learn more of the back story, whether it is shown or implied and in the end you are left wishing the film didn't have to end. Or bettter still, hoping there's a sequel. Now you want to find more Besson and Leterrier movies, more Jet Li movies and you renew your appreciation for old actors Morgan Freeman and Bob Hoskins.

So what's my point here?

I disagree, John Woo movies don't always shred, you gotta have the doves-scattering-to-the-air moment and the slow mo shoot dives... Now if people put that into their solos...

On a serious note, Face/Off was really a cool movie. Nice to see Nicolas Cage not play the weepy faced idiot for once... oh wait, he gets wrongfully imprisoned, personality gets stolen - turns into a weepy faced idiot. Damn. Travolta is great at strutting his stuff as always.

[Capt. Black]

Have you seen Unleashed?

[Tsuken]

Cool post, Capn. (and thanks for the kind words - even if I'm not sure I deserve them ).

Anyway, I agree in principle - in some situations. Perhaps most situations in fact. The only major difference is a personal thing; that I like hearing stupidly technical guitar-playing. If someone's playing them fast/cleanly enough, with enough attitude, I can even enjoy listening to scales We don't need no stinking context However, that's just me I know exactly what you're saying about complementing the rest of the music - and also making the lead a bit of a journey itself, rather than just 1/2 million 64th note triplets

Basically the biggest thing for me, to be honest, is: is it cool? The pace/technical skill/context/anything else doesn't really affect that, and I can't explain what "criteria" I have for thinking a bit of guitar is cool - but I'll recognise it when i hear it, and I'll like it. Whether it's a riff, a solo, a fill ... whatever. Cool is good. When I was younger I had an entire cassette tape recorded from the radio with just fragments of cool guitar. No complete songs (oh, except a Hendrix song, where the whole thing was cool) - just cool licks and riffs. And I actually listened to that tape regularly.

btw, I know there's no point to my ramblings. I'm too old (or at least feeling so at the moment) to bother making points.

One point I have to disagree with you on though is the solo for Since I've Been Loving You. I think it's just 'orrible tasteless flash - and poorly played to boot. Maybe that's just the solo he plays on the live version on The Song Remains the Same (the only version I have), but still... I've never understood why people hold it up as an example of good playing. If the studio recording is wildly different, please enlighten me.

[Bg]

Having never heard the version on Song Remains the Same for a looooong time, I have to presume they're completely different as the studio version (proper album version) is absolutely fantastic

[Rog]

Taking one thing from the good Capn's post, I too can listen to brilliant musos without wanting to emulate them at all. I have the music I like to play and sing and I have my style of playing them on keys, bass or guitar to accompany the song.

My style is a development of my own personal journey through performance music, influenced by others, but really just me doing what I can with my own twists. That's enough for me.