Cutting through the mix

[Rog]

In my current band, there are two guitar players.
When I solo I'm told you can hear every note.
When the other guitar player solos you hear almost nothing.

I'm using a Fender Bassman 200 combo and the other guitarist a Marshall 100W full valve half stack. He has his volume setting on 10 and I have mine on 3 (at my loudest).

So why doesn't he cut through the mix?
It has nothing to do with playing ability, as he's an excellent guitarist - way better than me (I'm just a learner on guitar).

I think the answer is in our use of effector pedals. He goes for full distortion/grunge and I play mainly clean, or with overdrive instead of distortion. He plays 465 notes per bar, I tend to play very few.

I have noticed when I practice at home (it has been known to happen), my distortion pedal sounds really good, but when I hit the same settings in a live band situation, my sound just drops into white noise..

This has led me to believe that distortion and grunge effectors have limited use in a live band. Yes, they sound great in the practice shed, but when gigging, sounds seem to change. I guess we've all found a killer tone at home, only to find it doesn't sound nearly as good on stage?

I'm interested to hear what you more experienced guitar players have found on this subject?

[Gelato]

The best "home sounds" hardly ever sound good live. Ususally the sort of distorted sounds that are great at home have the mids and treble dialed back, as they are quite harsh in a confined enviroment. In a live situation it's the mids and treble that cut though the other instruments. Usually a great live sound will sound pretty bad by itself.

[philipnz]

Yep, what they said.
Thats where the modellers fall flat in a live environment.
Thats why we rehearse at gig volume.
Thats why I practice at home LOUD
Thats why even my keyboard sounds must be set up again live after i have spend hours working it out at home through headphones etc.

[Bluesbird]

Yeah, I think clean sounds do cut through better. Heck, I have no trouble cutting through even when soloing with my neck humbucker through a 20W amp with the volume on a quarter Sounds incredibly warm and full - then somebody else does a distorted solo, and it sounds weak and flat, and seems to get lost with the rhythm.

[Richy11]

I find the louder I go the more I have to dial back the treble. Otherwise I find I get more and more white noise.

[Zakk Wylde]

Hmm, well my amp just sounds BAD when turned up

havent gig'd it yet tho

This is a very interesting thread if I may say so.

[angry_young_poet]

ask PB my amp sounds crap when turned on loud, specially with the distortion on!!!

so what's the solution?? more effects?? or get a new amp??

[Bg]

that tends to me amp 'headroom', only decent valve amps sound good breaking up. Also to cut through the group, you have to take into account the other players tone - if your tone is similar to the rythym guitar and bass and vice versa, you are going to get lost in the mix.

[GrantB]

Dr Rog, try winding your over drive gain back a few notches, and the pedal volume up a few notches. Getting a clean cut through using overdrive (via pedals) can take a bit of tweaking to get right. If the signal is too saturated (driven) the signal will be compressed to buggery, givign a flat, lifeless and quiet sounding lead break. Can happen if you use a multi effects unit (they almost always auto compress your signal) or a compressor with too much attack.
Try doing this at your next practise - find a volume on a clean sound that you think would cut it for a lead break. When playing verses or whatever, dial the guitar volume back and when it's your turn to carve, crank the volume to full and see if you can hear it then. That will give you an idea of the difference bewteen compressed saturated signal vs. clean and their relative imapct on clarity and volume. phew.

[MaloS]

dont now about allegro playing, but if u shred, a sound that is too fat (especially when distorted) can turn into just a stream of no idea what notes.

[Zakk Wylde]

Dr Rog, try winding your over drive gain back a few notches, and the pedal volume up a few notches.

Good little tip that one.

Picked that one up from an interview with Funeral For A Friend that I read.

[Rog]

Thanks, unique - I've passed that on to the guitarist in question. Hopefully he'll give it a go. Its embarassing for him - me drowing him out on 3/10 volume - LOL

He also desperately need to buy a real guitar, he's using a Jackson at present and it put it mildy, its total crapola!

[offender]

In my current band, there are two guitar players.
When I solo I'm told you can hear every note.
When the other guitar player solos you hear almost nothing.

I'm using a Fender Bassman 200 combo and the other guitarist a Marshall 100W full valve half stack. He has his volume setting on 10 and I have mine on 3 (at my loudest).

So why doesn't he cut through the mix?
It has nothing to do with playing ability, as he's an excellent guitarist - way better than me (I'm just a learner on guitar).

I think the answer is in our use of effector pedals. He goes for full distortion/grunge and I play mainly clean, or with overdrive instead of distortion. He plays 465 notes per bar, I tend to play very few.

I have noticed when I practice at home (it has been known to happen), my distortion pedal sounds really good, but when I hit the same settings in a live band situation, my sound just drops into white noise..

This has led me to believe that distortion and grunge effectors have limited use in a live band. Yes, they sound great in the practice shed, but when gigging, sounds seem to change. I guess we've all found a killer tone at home, only to find it doesn't sound nearly as good on stage?

I'm interested to hear what you more experienced guitar players have found on this subject?

Could it be the noise-cancellation effect? A bunch of similar pedals or even quite difference ones cancel each other out and whats left just comes through as toneless???

[The Scarecrow]

I get this a lot as well, and honestly, I think a lot of what needs to be taken into account is the area of the venue or location you're playing in. Chances are most of us are playing at home in bedrooms or spare rooms, square-shaped and fairly small. My guitar room is like this and when I play my JCM900 at home, I tend to notice it sounds a lot more low-endish than in the larger rectangular practise room my band uses.

At home, I tend to have my bass set highest, around 8, my trebble and presence set to 6 and my mids at 8. B-channel Gain is around 12-14 (bless the JCM 900 for going up to 20, though it all sounds the same over about 12) and my B-channel volume sits at around 3-4, bloody loud on my 50w amp with 4x12. Now, I do have a 25/50 power cut switch, so I can drop out one of the valves and get more tube saturation at lower volumes, but I don't use this as it messes with the bias.

I tend to use this setting in most cases, as my basic template. I have stuck with it because it works for clean and overdriven sounds - the JCM900 4500 Dual Reverb is great all-valve amp but has a shared EQ, so I have to compromise a bit, though this basic setting works well for both. I notice I lose a lof of bass at practise, and I attribute this to the environment and my placement of rig.

I had a little bit of trouble cutting through sometimes on the lead riffs I play on a couple of songs - my amp setup is mostly for rhythm, my role in the band but I do play the lead on a few tracks, mostly quite basic stuff. I found I couldn't be heard a lot of the time as I favor my neck pickup, and my lead guitarist a bridge man. I now use my Boss BD-2 Bluesdriver with no gain, all level and tone at about 11 o'clock to get a boost, which allows me to cut through a bit more. It doesn't so much boost the volume as it acts almost like a compressor and gives me a bit more trebble, almost making my neck sound like my bridge. Works for me.

In any band with two guitars, the rhythm and lead player really need to find setting which compliment each other. I play slighly more low-endish stuff, our lead gat is more high-pitched. He uses a JCM2000 100w, which has a more high-end tone anyway, so that helps smooth things out. I think it goes something like this in my band.

Bass - low end.
Lead - high end.
Rhythm (me) - mid-range.
Drums - n/a

I think it helps playing differently voiced amps as well. My JCM 900 is much more gritty and hard-rock sounding than the JCM200, which I find to have a more modern, slightly processed sound, but a superb clean. I like the distortion, but it's exactly that, distortion and I think my 900 overdrives better, giving it smoother sounds. I guess the best comparison is that my amp does sound like a marshall stack on dirty and a passable marshall crunch on clean, where as my lead guitarists is almost-fender clean on the A Channel and voiced to sound Rectofier-Mesa-ish on channel B.

Mind you, we do tend to spend a good twenty minutes fooling around with our tones each practise, but I honestly think a lot of being able to cut through is to do with the area you're in and whether your amp is valve or solid state, which tends to keep the same characterstics regardless. Tubes like to be fussy and play around, but you'd be hard pressed to see me play a transistor amp.

Keeping your mids up heaps tends to help on solos as well, or so i've found, though that my apply to my own rig.

Anyway, just my own findings.

[Rog]

Thanks.

I've passed everything along to the other guitarist, and he spends about 60% of every practice pissing around with his tones - I wish I'd just shut the fuck up!! LOL

Actually, I don't know what it is, but I find most guitarists I work with who use Marshalls, spend an awful lot of time pissing about with their tones and I can never hear any difference between pre and post fiddling...

When I play with guitarists using pretty much any other amp, they set up, adjust volume and just play - never touching their settings all night....

Why is that?