spasm6 wrote:We are having an uncannily similar discussion on the jazz school Facebook page. The head of production Dave Saunders (he's worked on tours with Roger Waters, Jeff Beck, Mark Knopfler etc) had this to say.
I might spec for an ad for TV for $5k..... you might do (respectively) not quite such a good job for $500. You are happy, and the client is delighted, they saved $4.5k and they got an ad..... they may not really register the difference between the two "professional" outcomes....... they are both 30 seconds long and seem to do the job... you win $500 and I lose $5k.The bottom line of expectation moves..... The ad is not quite as good as it should be, but no one really cares - it's just advertising. Next year, a leaving student undercuts you for $300 - they get the job - I lose $5k, you lose $500 and the new composer wins $300. The client gets a crap ad which we are all subjected to on the TV.......The quality goes down and no one cares - it's only advertising. But the bottom line of the budget has now moved PERMANENTLY by two generations of proven win, win success, and is now the norm.... We set precedents by what we do and what we uphold, change and charge. Beware undermining your own future..... it is virtually impossible to back-track once we re-set the "norm"......... have sensibility, faith and karma for your business. Keep the industry nourished and rightfully expectant. "What do you mean that you want paying for it ? " You're doing what you love....aren't you ?
Thats pretty similar to what happens in the internet programming business. College students undercutting the pros, a short sighted stupidity as they'll be looking to charge realistic rates once they finish college and end up working properly for a living.
And in the "gigging" band business generally, but no one seems to worry too much about that
The opinions expressed in the post above may differ from the opinions expressed by other people with different opinions.
I'm impressed with Ben's repeated ability to create controversy from seemingly innocent posts.
All you anti free guys; ever played a gig for drinks.... or less?
Beyond a critical point within a finite space, freedom diminishes as numbers increase. This is as true of humans as it is of gas molecules in a sealed flask. The human question is not how many can possibly survive within the system, but what kind of existence is possible for those who so survive.
slowfingers wrote:I'm impressed with Ben's repeated ability to create controversy from seemingly innocent posts.
You know he recently gave someone a free Lace Sensor Pickup too. The bastard is trying to bring down the entire guitar accessories market.
Hmmmm. Very devious. P :funky: Perhaps he is not all that he seems......
Beyond a critical point within a finite space, freedom diminishes as numbers increase. This is as true of humans as it is of gas molecules in a sealed flask. The human question is not how many can possibly survive within the system, but what kind of existence is possible for those who so survive.
slowfingers wrote:I'm impressed with Ben's repeated ability to create controversy from seemingly innocent posts.
All you anti free guys; ever played a gig for drinks.... or less?
I've yet to take money from a gig. but I'm also yet to NOT pay for the time, services and effort of those that make it possible for me to indulge my ego on stage.
Apart from my fellow band members. Those mother fuckers can suck my salty balls.
slowfingers wrote:I'm impressed with Ben's repeated ability to create controversy from seemingly innocent posts.
Seriously, I don't know how I've been doing it - I've never got into forum arguments before and then this year there's been like 3!
Sorry if I'm being an ass, I'm actually very nice, I swear!
Maybe I'm going about this all the wrong way, but I genuinely I'm just keen to meet some local bands and see if we can work together. Can't get much more innocent than that.
slowfingers wrote:I'm impressed with Ben's repeated ability to create controversy from seemingly innocent posts.
Seriously, I don't know how I've been doing it - I've never got into forum arguments before and then this year there's been like 3!
Sorry if I'm being an ass, I'm actually very nice, I swear!
Maybe I'm going about this all the wrong way, but I genuinely I'm just keen to meet some local bands and see if we can work together. Can't get much more innocent than that.
Not being an ass at all. And seriously, it's perfectly fine what you want to do. As I mentioned earlier, to me is really sounds like you're looking for a band you get on with to collaborate long term.
I think your knack is in finding topics that stimulate debate.
I wouldn't take it personally and I hope people won't have a go at you for some topic just because you've raised it.
Hi Ben
this is fascinating. Ive had the (dubious) honour of working with 3 sound guys since I came Wellington ( at 5 gigs), One was a really nice guy.....but none did the job to the standard I expect. None of the guys Ive worked with in Welly have ridden faders....actually none have stayed at the desk all through the set! None set delay times to match tempo. None managed to avoid feedback!
I believe I am worth a pretty high rate as a soundy even tho Im out of practice and a bit out of date with some of the latest technology. Why...cos I know a very wide range of musical contexts and have good intuition for dynamics etc. and...mixing gives me a woody...I love doing it. Id mix for free tomorrow for the right act, and quote very high for an act that I wasnt emotionally engaged with.
As a guitarist Ill play for free in order to have an audience. On the other hand I wont give away my intellectual property online...(except for you lot of course).
Ben, Id love to work with you...why? cos you want to do the work out of love for the work.
Yes, its dangerous to do valuable work for free. Its also dangerous to pay for crap!
GrantB wrote:
“You might be cool, but you’ll never be playing a white Steinberger through a JC120, wearing a white jumpsuit with white shoes and sporting a mullet cool”.
He was early for soundcheck and the gig...helpful, attentive...amd all reports say it sounded great.
Well done .....and thanks Ben Appreciate it!
GrantB wrote:
“You might be cool, but you’ll never be playing a white Steinberger through a JC120, wearing a white jumpsuit with white shoes and sporting a mullet cool”.
spasm6 wrote:We are having an uncannily similar discussion on the jazz school Facebook page. The head of production Dave Saunders (he's worked on tours with Roger Waters, Jeff Beck, Mark Knopfler etc) had this to say.
I might spec for an ad for TV for $5k..... you might do (respectively) not quite such a good job for $500. You are happy, and the client is delighted, they saved $4.5k and they got an ad..... they may not really register the difference between the two "professional" outcomes....... they are both 30 seconds long and seem to do the job... you win $500 and I lose $5k.The bottom line of expectation moves..... The ad is not quite as good as it should be, but no one really cares - it's just advertising. Next year, a leaving student undercuts you for $300 - they get the job - I lose $5k, you lose $500 and the new composer wins $300. The client gets a crap ad which we are all subjected to on the TV.......The quality goes down and no one cares - it's only advertising. But the bottom line of the budget has now moved PERMANENTLY by two generations of proven win, win success, and is now the norm.... We set precedents by what we do and what we uphold, change and charge. Beware undermining your own future..... it is virtually impossible to back-track once we re-set the "norm"......... have sensibility, faith and karma for your business. Keep the industry nourished and rightfully expectant. "What do you mean that you want paying for it ? " You're doing what you love....aren't you ?
this is the exact reason why it's getting harder and harder to make money as a live musician, because some shitty band two doors down will play for free and no door charge, all of a sudden people come to your show and go "what, we have to PAY???" then they leave.
luckily in Melbourne, it seems like the standard for ANY small show is around $10-12 admission, which people happily pay because that's what they expect to do. Makes us not feel bad about charging for shows, and no-one questions it. In Dunedin you would think twice about putting a $5 admission on a show, because if there was anything else on that night, you pretty much just cut your audience in half
BG wrote:I don't care if you worship god or you worship goats cocks
