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Moderator: Capt. Black
In a free society they are all valid, you can read Marx and even Hitler, they are all perspectives and you can read them, they haven’t been edited out of the library. Just don't select books because they agree with your viewpoint or that of you favourite popstar. Try histories of Russia and the Soviet regime for starters. It would be illuminating to also read Soviet written Soviet histories. Read books on Britain’s history, North America, South American, Western Civilisation, Ancient Greece, Rome: try the mainstream recommended readings then read the alternative readings. Read sociology, science, arts books and think about it all.foal30 wrote:The reply was not intended as any painting of you as Conservative simply throwing out some lines/concepts as I felt/feel your post left unanswered would be irresponsible of me.
Would you like to recomend some History books? Would be really keen on seeing what you would consider a valid reference.
No I don’t believe I did, I was calling attention to a double standard here. It would be foolish to ignore the sins of developed nations and equally so to ignore those of the developing nations. Perhaps it would help to examine the efforts to acknowledge the damage done to both Native American and NZ Maori by both US and NZ governments. Financial recompense is being attempted, apologises made and although it will never “make up†for the damage done, it does acknowledge the evil.foal30 wrote:I think you have mis-construed the "it's murder when it's a white man making money off it" barb. I was attempting to state that "our" crimes are forgivable, not mentioned , a mistake, best intentions gone astray.
Where our eniemes are evil, corrupt, devioues etc...
My Great Uncle was imprisoned, starved and tortured (not for information but as punishment for being captured) and was unable to contact the outside world, the family didn’t know where he was or what happened to him. At “Gitmo†(thanks lionking) the inmates are well nourished, receive medical attention and can send and receive messages to the outside world. There is even a movement within the US looking to free these men and thanks to the power of the judicial system, they have a strong chance of doing so.foal30 wrote:If I look at you ranking Japenese P.O.W Camps vs Guantanmo this is sort of what I am getting at, it's them or they (the Japenese) so obviousley there crimes are worse than ours (Guantanamo).
I would argue the result is the same, illeagl detainment, tortuers, barbarism dressed as civilization or security.
And political opponents, academics, people who have made critiques of his rule. Oh and persecution is not the problem with Castro, it’s the disappearance of these people ie: killed by the Cuban State and bodies destroyed/hidden/buried secretly, look it up, try Amnesty International (an independent organisation neither a fan of the US or Cuba, but guess which country they can operate freely within)…foal30 wrote:At no stage to I wish top imply that my motives are pure or infallibale, a proveable accusation I could level at Castro's regime may be the persacution of Homosexuals , for example.
Yes he did try assassination and yes they have, try reading newspapersfoal30 wrote:"Castro sat passivley" yeah he tried to asassinate many U.S, Presidents. The liberal Media has never published this though...
WTF? Please read above, I don’t think many countries look favourably on assassination of their leaders, I know Castro didn’t like it when the CIA tried to get him.foal30 wrote:exactly what has been the Castor regime's crimes against the US?
Nope, definitely not, he was a fascist like Pinochet. BTW on Pinochet, another expert on mass killings, shame he was never held accountable. On the bright side, as he allowed the people more power they quitely rebelled, Chile is now democratic with a capitalist economy (with a social conscience) and has never had so many wealthy, happy citizens.foal30 wrote:and will anyone here say that Cubans had it better under Baptista's regime?
Every state has a history of war and violence, EVERY state. What a state should be judged on is the welfare of it’s citizens and it’s interaction with the outside world. Democracies fare better on this adjudication than any other system. Democracy is the will of the majority remember and capitalism is the product of that will.foal30 wrote:"Pacifist Agenda". well that probably means denouncing violence in all it's forms, which is pretty much the entire Capatilist system. I find it hard to believe that it can be viewed as a sucksess. Unless of course you are lucky enought o live ina state that has through acts of War and Violence got into a position of privilige.
I refer you to my above comments and remember if you can’t find a book written by a certain person you can probably order it…Castro censors books in Cuba…foal30 wrote:"Pop Socialist sound bites" . you can do better than this. Although without your recommended reading list maybe I should reserve judgement.
Just like the whole premise of socialism: that the people aren’t smart enough to govern themselves and need a smarter minority to impose its values upon them.foal30 wrote:The whole last paragraph is condescending,
Please see my comments above, read widely and THINK, don’t rely on pop stars to do it for you…foal30 wrote:and I look forward to your history lesson on the correct learnings I need to educate myself. Throw us some good spelling ones too...
Errr, wrong, Audioslave performed in Cuba remember? I even have the DVD! You can visit Cuba as a US citizen (ref: Ry Cooder and the Bueno Vista Social Club) and you can return to the US. Leaving Cuba once you’re a Cuban citizen is difficult and that’s not got a lot to do with the US…foal30 wrote:"Move to Cuba, Nth Korea etc" well going to Cuba and then returning is a 20 year jail term in US, right? Freedom of movement....
foal30 wrote:"Miami Cubans" , that the people who were the collaberators take offence with Castro's regime is no surprize. the Indocriantion comment is hilarious, are you seriously implying that we are not bombarded with Capatilist Propoganda every minute of every day? That a privilged class of Slave-Owners , traitors, and lackeys are annoyed with there lot now is not something to lose sleep over. "Brothers Executions" . What state are you living in again? Frying Capatil , with a recently retired Govener who to all appearnences was in a death penalty compotition with his brother...
Afghan self-defence. Your Government is not re-building , it is securing a pipeline from the Causacus. And bombing 20000 civilins is not self-defence it is mass-murder. Or were they all Taliban?
I could go on (and on and on) but I did tell myself I've got to try and keep this politics to a bare minimum on this site. So it is nice to hear some other views , I better go put some Audioslave on eh?
Apologies for creating you thinking I was painting you as something you identify youreself as not being Terexgeek.
and Lionheart, thanks for your contribution, obviousley I don't agree , but hey disscussion leads to understanding hopefully?
Good point, I agree!lionking wrote:quote; I’ll leave this to you lionking. I do love a good debate and I feel very privileged to live in a country that allows me to do so.;
don't consider it a privilage my friend consider it a right.Any government that is powerful enough to give or allow you something,is powerful enough to take it away.![]()
Agreed, I missed your meaning, thanks.lionking wrote:Tex yes I value being allied and friends with NZ,Britian,Aussies and such.I was refering to Washington's comment about being careful who you ally yourself with as for instance Sadam and dirty politics.
Having friends and colleagues I respect and like that are school-teachers and also people I respect and like who are self made people (the “man†part being inaccurate for a couple) I’ll take that as a compliment, thank you foal30.foal30 wrote:I'm interested that you offer a position of Intellectual Superiority then fail to offer specfic titles Terexgeek. "All books are valid" you sound like a school-teacher or even worse a "selfmademan".
Yes I do, you’re quite correct, in fact I would be interested to hear of those countries that don’t have “freedom of speech†that have a majority of people “better offâ€.foal30 wrote:I get the distinct vibe that you think because we have "freedom of speech" clauses in our statues or a"access to all books" we are better off than other people under/in other systems.
I guess we’re going to have to disagree here. I personally believe the whole Middle East would be far better off with a separation of Church and State, establishment of the rights of the individual (ie freedom of speech, freedom of movement, freedom from persecution on grounds of gender/race/religion) and democracy. The economics would eventually sort itself out, money has never been short in the region, it’s never been stable enough without dictatorship (of church or militia) to develop as far as needs to have a majority “better offâ€. I also believe that for this to work, it will have to develop by the will of a majority of the countries involved. I do not believe force will work to enforce these changes.foal30 wrote:I am offering the perspective that for all our "freedoms" the Western Democrocies are the terrorists. Alls these rights are great , they just don't actually do anything productive to the people we are so generously and passivley exporting them too.
foal30 wrote:The claim that Socalism is a form of Government of "All-knowing superiors " rif=ding the opigs back sounds mighty like the last 30 years of NZ govt
Cool, I’ve been meaning to read one of Yeltsin’s Bio’s, and I’ll read the others: I take it this is not the sum total of your reading to arrive at your current position?foal30 wrote:I've read a number of post Yeltsin Russian biogs/history. Prehaps the most powerful overtone ids that the shits are always in charge, regardless what party they belong too this week. or cop Polands governments since 1991.
Martin Amis "Koba the Dread" is a fantastic read for a view of a foriegner looking at Russia and of "Trotsky chic" of some Westerners. I like his riposite on Christopher Hitchens.
Sorry but I don’t tally the current administration of US being ignorant, aggressive, religious zealots to mean that capitalism is completely wrong and democracy is bad.foal30 wrote:My point on "white mans mistakes" is amazingly born out in Lionheart's reply, Afgahn mission has "flaws" , not an addmission that travelling half the way round the world to bomb fuck out of poor people is in fact illmoral, illeagl and a recipe for further violence. Our intentions were always "for the best" or "misguided".
I feel it only fair to remind you, the US didn’t invent capitalism or even the market…trading for recompense (profit the aim) has occurred since before written record and will continue long after I’m dust. Communism and Socialism has only emerged recently and as a pure (academic) concept it’s great. Sadly it has never been implemented in a pure form with any success. Please correct me but is there an example of it being a success anywhere? Even Cuba relies on income produced from selling goods produced from within the country to overseas MARKETS for PROFIT to purchase overseas the resources they cannot produce themselves. This is all handled by the state, which is MIGHTier than any individual within Cuba and also considers itself infallibly RIGHT.foal30 wrote:My Grandfather did 4 1/2 years in Nth Africa then Sthern Europe in WWII and he was quite clear to me in the late '70s that he and his broothers had not gone to war to let America do now what Hitler was doing then. I cringe to think what he'd feel know, an almost complete cowardice and capitualtion to "Might is right" Love the Market" American/Capatilist B.S.
So I take it when you’re famous and money is being thrown at you, you’ll keep your existing lifestyle income, won’t purchase further musical equipment or housing or vehicles and give away all your cash to political/social institutions…yeah right!foal30 wrote:I gotta dash, keep up the good work fellas, maybe Slashed could contribute too?