Audioslave - "Revelations"

[slash-ed]

Alert, B45-12 has stolen yet another account...

[Terexgeek]

The reply was not intended as any painting of you as Conservative simply throwing out some lines/concepts as I felt/feel your post left unanswered would be irresponsible of me.
Would you like to recomend some History books? Would be really keen on seeing what you would consider a valid reference.

In a free society they are all valid, you can read Marx and even Hitler, they are all perspectives and you can read them, they haven’t been edited out of the library. Just don't select books because they agree with your viewpoint or that of you favourite popstar. Try histories of Russia and the Soviet regime for starters. It would be illuminating to also read Soviet written Soviet histories. Read books on Britain’s history, North America, South American, Western Civilisation, Ancient Greece, Rome: try the mainstream recommended readings then read the alternative readings. Read sociology, science, arts books and think about it all.

I think you have mis-construed the "it's murder when it's a white man making money off it" barb. I was attempting to state that "our" crimes are forgivable, not mentioned , a mistake, best intentions gone astray.
Where our eniemes are evil, corrupt, devioues etc...

No I don’t believe I did, I was calling attention to a double standard here. It would be foolish to ignore the sins of developed nations and equally so to ignore those of the developing nations. Perhaps it would help to examine the efforts to acknowledge the damage done to both Native American and NZ Maori by both US and NZ governments. Financial recompense is being attempted, apologises made and although it will never “make up” for the damage done, it does acknowledge the evil.

If I look at you ranking Japenese P.O.W Camps vs Guantanmo this is sort of what I am getting at, it's them or they (the Japenese) so obviousley there crimes are worse than ours (Guantanamo).
I would argue the result is the same, illeagl detainment, tortuers, barbarism dressed as civilization or security.

My Great Uncle was imprisoned, starved and tortured (not for information but as punishment for being captured) and was unable to contact the outside world, the family didn’t know where he was or what happened to him. At “Gitmo” (thanks lionking) the inmates are well nourished, receive medical attention and can send and receive messages to the outside world. There is even a movement within the US looking to free these men and thanks to the power of the judicial system, they have a strong chance of doing so.

I hold no grudge against the Japanese involved in the Second World War or any descendants of them, I don’t regard them as evil and regard the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki as horrific. That is a separate issue.

At no stage to I wish top imply that my motives are pure or infallibale, a proveable accusation I could level at Castro's regime may be the persacution of Homosexuals , for example.

And political opponents, academics, people who have made critiques of his rule. Oh and persecution is not the problem with Castro, it’s the disappearance of these people ie: killed by the Cuban State and bodies destroyed/hidden/buried secretly, look it up, try Amnesty International (an independent organisation neither a fan of the US or Cuba, but guess which country they can operate freely within)…

"Castro sat passivley" yeah he tried to asassinate many U.S, Presidents. The liberal Media has never published this though...

Yes he did try assassination and yes they have, try reading newspapers

exactly what has been the Castor regime's crimes against the US?

WTF? Please read above, I don’t think many countries look favourably on assassination of their leaders, I know Castro didn’t like it when the CIA tried to get him.

and will anyone here say that Cubans had it better under Baptista's regime?

Nope, definitely not, he was a fascist like Pinochet. BTW on Pinochet, another expert on mass killings, shame he was never held accountable. On the bright side, as he allowed the people more power they quitely rebelled, Chile is now democratic with a capitalist economy (with a social conscience) and has never had so many wealthy, happy citizens.

"Pacifist Agenda". well that probably means denouncing violence in all it's forms, which is pretty much the entire Capatilist system. I find it hard to believe that it can be viewed as a sucksess. Unless of course you are lucky enought o live ina state that has through acts of War and Violence got into a position of privilige.

Every state has a history of war and violence, EVERY state. What a state should be judged on is the welfare of it’s citizens and it’s interaction with the outside world. Democracies fare better on this adjudication than any other system. Democracy is the will of the majority remember and capitalism is the product of that will.

"Pop Socialist sound bites" . you can do better than this. Although without your recommended reading list maybe I should reserve judgement.

I refer you to my above comments and remember if you can’t find a book written by a certain person you can probably order it…Castro censors books in Cuba…

The whole last paragraph is condescending,

Just like the whole premise of socialism: that the people aren’t smart enough to govern themselves and need a smarter minority to impose its values upon them.
I prefer a democratic/capitalist system with a social conscience, like most of the developed world…

and I look forward to your history lesson on the correct learnings I need to educate myself. Throw us some good spelling ones too...

Please see my comments above, read widely and THINK, don’t rely on pop stars to do it for you…

Your meaning is clear even if your spelling is not…

"Move to Cuba, Nth Korea etc" well going to Cuba and then returning is a 20 year jail term in US, right? Freedom of movement....

Errr, wrong, Audioslave performed in Cuba remember? I even have the DVD! You can visit Cuba as a US citizen (ref: Ry Cooder and the Bueno Vista Social Club) and you can return to the US. Leaving Cuba once you’re a Cuban citizen is difficult and that’s not got a lot to do with the US…

"Miami Cubans" , that the people who were the collaberators take offence with Castro's regime is no surprize. the Indocriantion comment is hilarious, are you seriously implying that we are not bombarded with Capatilist Propoganda every minute of every day? That a privilged class of Slave-Owners , traitors, and lackeys are annoyed with there lot now is not something to lose sleep over. "Brothers Executions" . What state are you living in again? Frying Capatil , with a recently retired Govener who to all appearnences was in a death penalty compotition with his brother...
Afghan self-defence. Your Government is not re-building , it is securing a pipeline from the Causacus. And bombing 20000 civilins is not self-defence it is mass-murder. Or were they all Taliban?
I could go on (and on and on) but I did tell myself I've got to try and keep this politics to a bare minimum on this site. So it is nice to hear some other views , I better go put some Audioslave on eh?
Apologies for creating you thinking I was painting you as something you identify youreself as not being Terexgeek.
and Lionheart, thanks for your contribution, obviousley I don't agree , but hey disscussion leads to understanding hopefully?

I’ll leave this to you lionking. I do love a good debate and I feel very privileged to live in a country that allows me to do so. I couldn’t criticize Castro from within Cuba…

[Terexgeek]

To clarify I enjoy Audioslaves music, just not their politics...

Er, sorry for being so off topic, umm I actually haven't heard the lastest album yet

l like the first two though!

[Jenesis]

I didn't think Audioslave were a political band. Perhaps I should read the lyrics...

[lionking]

quote; I’ll leave this to you lionking. I do love a good debate and I feel very privileged to live in a country that allows me to do so.;

don't consider it a privilage my friend consider it a right.Any government that is powerful enough to give or allow you something,is powerful enough to take it away.

oh I dont know if you are playing devils advocate or really believe what you have said foal,dismiss what I have said about Cuba if you will but I heard this from many Cubans of older and newer generations.Everyday young Cubans risk their life to escape here and they blame Castro not America for the current situation.

To call Cuba a Republic is false as a Republican government it at odds with communism and dictatorships.In fact,the U.S.A is a republican government not Cuba,N Korea or even China for that matter.As a example to how communism is a failure China themselves are now moving toward a somewhat free market yet continue to evade truer freedom in general.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republicanism

Also,there are many escaping from all of South and Central America to here its not just Cuba,because communism/socialism is a failure.In a attempt to be rid of one tyranny many are falsly allured into promoting another tyanny.

Yes civilians are dying in Afganistan and Iraq.But America,Britian,Australia,Canada,Danish,New Zealander and other freeworld forces involved go to great pains to avoid it if possible.There will be mistakes,nothing is pretty about war and yes there might be instances of criminal neglect but really to paint our forces as murderous thugs is a diservice.

On the contrast,Osama and insurgents purposely target civilians.If they had not used civilian aircraft to target the civilian trade towers,and in fact later Britian subways they would not be feeling our wrath now.In fact thru the 90's they attacked us several times,while we replied with hollowed threats,lobbed a few cruise missles into nothingness.Sometimes peace can only be obtained through war,and if war is a must then its a duty to do it hard and as fast as possible(and more humane) to be over with it.Sadly the Bush administration is failing in this regard.

The UN is also incapable in many regards,as has become corrupt in many instances just like any unchecked government tends to become.

I support the military,it is said that their sacrifice is my comfort and I know this.That these young men and women paid so little in wages would go to harms way voluntarily I am honored by them.It is said though,that when the shtf and in combat,they do not fight for country or ideals,but for their friend and comrade next to them.They give up many of civilian rights such as free speech and go where they are told to go.Im sure some are wondering about why Iraq,but Afganistan I still believe is of purpose.

Tex yes I value being allied and friends with NZ,Britian,Aussies and such.I was refering to Washington's comment about being careful who you ally yourself with as for instance Sadam and dirty politics.

Really though to end this where it began as far as artitsts who have criticism for the their country that has freedom and touts how wonderful some really oppressive system is ,is a wonder to me.

[Terexgeek]

I didn't think Audioslave were a political band. Perhaps I should read the lyrics...

And observe their actions re: playing in Cuba to support Castro, not free political prisoners

[Terexgeek]

quote; I’ll leave this to you lionking. I do love a good debate and I feel very privileged to live in a country that allows me to do so.;

don't consider it a privilage my friend consider it a right.Any government that is powerful enough to give or allow you something,is powerful enough to take it away.

Good point, I agree!

Tex yes I value being allied and friends with NZ,Britian,Aussies and such.I was refering to Washington's comment about being careful who you ally yourself with as for instance Sadam and dirty politics.

Agreed, I missed your meaning, thanks.

[foal30]

I'm interested that you offer a position of Intellectual Superiority then fail to offer specfic titles Terexgeek. "All books are valid" you sound like a school-teacher or even worse a "selfmademan".

I get the distinct vibe that you think because we have "freedom of speech" clauses in our statues or a"access to all books" we are better off than other people under/in other systems. I am offering the perspective that for all our "freedoms" the Western Democrocies are the terrorists. Alls these rights are great , they just don't actually do anything productive to the people we are so generously and passivley exporting them too.

The claim that Socalism is a form of Government of "All-knowing superiors " rif=ding the opigs back sounds mighty like the last 30 years of NZ govt

I've read a number of post Yeltsin Russian biogs/history. Prehaps the most powerful overtone ids that the shits are always in charge, regardless what party they belong too this week. or cop Polands governments since 1991.

Martin Amis "Koba the Dread" is a fantastic read for a view of a foriegner looking at Russia and of "Trotsky chic" of some Westerners. I like his riposite on Christopher Hitchens.

My point on "white mans mistakes" is amazingly born out in Lionheart's reply, Afgahn mission has "flaws" , not an addmission that travelling half the way round the world to bomb fuck out of poor people is in fact illmoral, illeagl and a recipe for further violence. Our intentions were always "for the best" or "misguided".

My Grandfather did 4 1/2 years in Nth Africa then Sthern Europe in WWII and he was quite clear to me in the late '70s that he and his broothers had not gone to war to let America do now what Hitler was doing then. I cringe to think what he'd feel know, an almost complete cowardice and capitualtion to "Might is right" Love the Market" American/Capatilist B.S.


I gotta dash, keep up the good work fellas, maybe Slashed could contribute too?

[Terexgeek]

I'm interested that you offer a position of Intellectual Superiority then fail to offer specfic titles Terexgeek. "All books are valid" you sound like a school-teacher or even worse a "selfmademan".

Having friends and colleagues I respect and like that are school-teachers and also people I respect and like who are self made people (the “man” part being inaccurate for a couple) I’ll take that as a compliment, thank you foal30.
I have read probably 100-200 books over the last ten years, approximately, to reach my current perspective. I have found the best way to put someone off reading something is to tell them to read it, the best and most valuable knowledge you will ever have is that you have found for yourself…
I am not remotely interested in being intellectually superior, the argument for freedom and welfare of humankind is more important, I believe, than me being clever (doh, now I'm being morally superior ). I am sorry though for being flippant however; this debate has a serious point (and now earnest , but you can call me TG ).

I get the distinct vibe that you think because we have "freedom of speech" clauses in our statues or a"access to all books" we are better off than other people under/in other systems.

Yes I do, you’re quite correct, in fact I would be interested to hear of those countries that don’t have “freedom of speech” that have a majority of people “better off”.

I am offering the perspective that for all our "freedoms" the Western Democrocies are the terrorists. Alls these rights are great , they just don't actually do anything productive to the people we are so generously and passivley exporting them too.

I guess we’re going to have to disagree here. I personally believe the whole Middle East would be far better off with a separation of Church and State, establishment of the rights of the individual (ie freedom of speech, freedom of movement, freedom from persecution on grounds of gender/race/religion) and democracy. The economics would eventually sort itself out, money has never been short in the region, it’s never been stable enough without dictatorship (of church or militia) to develop as far as needs to have a majority “better off”. I also believe that for this to work, it will have to develop by the will of a majority of the countries involved. I do not believe force will work to enforce these changes.

I really don’t like what the US has done in the Middle East, or Britain for that matter, or France, or the Soviets, or modern Russia but the issues in the area are too ancient and more vast to be solved by recommending Anarchy or Socialism or Communism even little old Democracy…

The claim that Socalism is a form of Government of "All-knowing superiors " rif=ding the opigs back sounds mighty like the last 30 years of NZ govt

Er, I did say read some NZ history. Up until the early eighties we DID have a socialist government, a rigidly regulated economy, until till the money generated by our international capitalist (external activities of a socialist country) activities (trade with Britain) ran out.

I've read a number of post Yeltsin Russian biogs/history. Prehaps the most powerful overtone ids that the shits are always in charge, regardless what party they belong too this week. or cop Polands governments since 1991.

Martin Amis "Koba the Dread" is a fantastic read for a view of a foriegner looking at Russia and of "Trotsky chic" of some Westerners. I like his riposite on Christopher Hitchens.

Cool, I’ve been meaning to read one of Yeltsin’s Bio’s, and I’ll read the others: I take it this is not the sum total of your reading to arrive at your current position?

My point on "white mans mistakes" is amazingly born out in Lionheart's reply, Afgahn mission has "flaws" , not an addmission that travelling half the way round the world to bomb fuck out of poor people is in fact illmoral, illeagl and a recipe for further violence. Our intentions were always "for the best" or "misguided".

Sorry but I don’t tally the current administration of US being ignorant, aggressive, religious zealots to mean that capitalism is completely wrong and democracy is bad.

Please point out a country with no history of bloodshed or indeed a country that fails to react when an act of terrorism is perpetrated against them? New Zealand responded peaceably to Frances actions against it, and was promptly shafted by Britain and the whole EU, lot of good it did us…Sanctions against France, a fuss at the UN, anything would’ve been better than what happened…

George Bush would be just as much of a nightmare if he were forcing socialism (the Middle East has been capitalist or displayed capitalist tendencies since long before Christ was a twinkle in his pop’s eye) and fascism, totalitarianism or any other –ism…Indeed the US is not the world’s biggest democracy, India is and thanks to freedom of speech and capitalism they’re slowly improving their human rights record, the welfare of the individual and everyone’s standard of living in the country. Yes, they have a long way to go, but the progress is there. China will also ultimately end up with democracy, a long way to go yet to get there but the people will win…They’ve already got capitalism, and that was the will of the people.

The Soviets have also invaded Afghanistan or was that not covered in any of the books you’ve read so far? Great job they did rebuilding it…oh wait….no, they didn’t.

Sadly invading the Middle East was a deeply, deeply dumb thing to do. It was done against the recommendation of all but the very people closest to Bush and ultimately I believe it will result in the President’s power being reduced via legislation…possible to happen in a democracy you see. Remember Georgie is gone next election, no if, buts or maybes. It’s constitutional, there will be a new President…

Either way the Middle East will be a mess sadly long after the US leaves it alone, just like it was before the US got involved, before the British got involved, before oil was discovered, before the Romans…

My Grandfather did 4 1/2 years in Nth Africa then Sthern Europe in WWII and he was quite clear to me in the late '70s that he and his broothers had not gone to war to let America do now what Hitler was doing then. I cringe to think what he'd feel know, an almost complete cowardice and capitualtion to "Might is right" Love the Market" American/Capatilist B.S.

I feel it only fair to remind you, the US didn’t invent capitalism or even the market…trading for recompense (profit the aim) has occurred since before written record and will continue long after I’m dust. Communism and Socialism has only emerged recently and as a pure (academic) concept it’s great. Sadly it has never been implemented in a pure form with any success. Please correct me but is there an example of it being a success anywhere? Even Cuba relies on income produced from selling goods produced from within the country to overseas MARKETS for PROFIT to purchase overseas the resources they cannot produce themselves. This is all handled by the state, which is MIGHTier than any individual within Cuba and also considers itself infallibly RIGHT.

I gotta dash, keep up the good work fellas, maybe Slashed could contribute too?

So I take it when you’re famous and money is being thrown at you, you’ll keep your existing lifestyle income, won’t purchase further musical equipment or housing or vehicles and give away all your cash to political/social institutions…yeah right!

In short: US bad , Cuba bad , money/trade/profit necessary evil , Middle East messed up , tricky to solve , pure socialism/communism unworkable , profit making with a social conscience pretty good , reading good , knowledge good , freedom good , thinking good , hangover bad …

[foal30]

school teacher/self made ; heh, nice one. TG. there is no fear I'll be put off by asked for recco's.


"hearing from better off" well on any ranking Iran , Libya and Cuba are well ahead of USA on Dental , literacy, population educated, pop educated university level, and commomn acsess to what NZ would call "Primary health care".
I am not trying to be flippiant as I have not been to any of these countries (or even visited) but I don't think they are "Freer" in a legal sense.
Interestingly it's the "ultimate nanny states" Sweeden, Denmark etc that do best.
these "rankings" do include some UN stats... I see you guys don't have much time for them, yet make no comment on certain countries flagerenty and repeatedly breaking UN conventions. International Law if you will.

"Western Democrocies as terrorists"

yeah thats not so flash on re-run. Sorry.I am certainly not implying or abdecating "others" tyranney. Or denying it's existence.
The rights of the individual , which appears to mean a heck of a lot to you is interesting, one of the major lies of the supposed Free Market is the instituionilised Capatil vs Labour. So Free Market must mean Free Movement of Labour right? I've yet to see a Rich White go along with this seemingly obvious point.
Which may tie in too the force of the "majority". I really like this line TG, it's happening now in Latin America , despite Mass Murder, Coups , Bribery, and Election Rigging by the USA. If the "majority" of Saudi's decided to unsurp the Royal House and then only deal in Euro's and with non-nuclear states what reaction do you think this would cause? Supposistion I know, but the reack record would indicate Invasion or Funding a Terrorist militia to re-install a "manangable" government.

"seperation of Church/State" yeah and State/Science. The new theology of the ruling class.

Nice to include Russia, UK in moan list. France's record defies belief (particulary in regard to Saddam Hussien).

"I don't believe force will work". yeah, again nice one, ties in well with your high prioritisation of personal liberty/statues. One would assume that long lasting , non-violent societal change can really only occur with such statues inbedded in law. (at least most likely eh?). Ghandi had no laws at the start.

"system to reccomend". well we know whats not a sucsess. heh.

"read NZ history" Condescending Man. you can do way better. Any assumption that anothers opinion is formed by lack of "infomation" smacks of pompusness.
NZ has never had a Socialist Government. Some Governments with a Social agenda, Savage and Kirk spring to mind. Can't think of any others although if the Alliance had of held it together in 1999-2002 we would of seen positive legoslation for the Working Poor.
I guess we disagree, but when I read of "Clark's socialist bent" I'm not sure wether to laugh or cry.
I'm not at all convinced that EEC caused NZ's woes. Rodger Douglas era is clearly the start of systamtic robbery of the Nation's resources.
but I guess we will dis-agree here too.
Honourable mention to Muldoon/Birch regime for seriously trashing the place too. and how did Norm Jones ever get in?

"post Yeltsin" oops my typo. Not Yeltsin's story, I mean stories about life during /after the Yeltsin years. there is also quite a vibrant Russian community here in Chch, some pretty amazing stories.

"Sum total" well one I guess hopes people don't forulate an opinion of 3 books, but I suspect it does happen. In this case no.

"current USA admin means capatilism/democrocy is bad".
I apologise unreservadly for forming the impression that I think so.
defiently not the case. part of it's nuance, Lionking touches on this nicely when he says "Don't call Cuba a Republic". I guess we use labels sometimes cos were lazy. A prime example would be the old East Germany, you know the one with democratic in its name...
I also would venture caution in Reilgious in describing USA admin... It's like calling Osama a Muslim calling George a Christian. At no stage do either of them appear to pay any attention to what there holy books say (Maybe it's my flawed interpritations)

"Lange's handling of RW"
yeah, it's a tough one. I tend to like the non-violent response. That US and Britian shafted us for money is no surprize.

"please indicate country that hasnot responded to terrorism"
well Fidel in Cuba has acted with incredible restraint. Chavez in Venuzuala too and Daniel Ortega had every right to blow up the White House as far as I can tell. Maybe they would if given the cahnce, I dunno like above it's supposiation, but I think these guys mandates are on helping the poor not fattening there own lives.

"India/China" sceptical that more Democrocy will lead to more Human rights. but we've covered this. Although it's hard to imagine less human rights in China. great how the West is queing for trade eh? really telling that billion of "humans" how much we respect them.
I guess I like your positive outlook, I pretty cynical about where USA and China will go, and sadly sooner rather than later. I don't view this as Commie vs Capat , just the usual War of Resources.

"Soviet Afghan" um , yeah but wasn't America paying for the war. Overthrow the Democratic Government with Osama no less! Masterstroke that one, although Reagen did get enough Smack to fund his re-election eh.
I wont attempt to argue that Soviet action was in anyway altrusic, but really look at the Allies record in this part of the world, shameful isnt the half of it

"New President/Less Powers" again I feel Im struggling to make my point... new President dont mean shit if he's the same flavour. hurray for Democrocy, John Key has turned National into Labour overnight! pleanty of choice! hang out the flags instead of bombing the Arabs we will shoot them.
This is one party state, Big-Business party there is two factions saying pretty much the same thing.

"Middle East mess" sadly, most likely. but America out will be a starting point for a resolution that enables peace. Also not having Nazi-worshiping Syrian leadership would help too....

"export , profit etc" you've lost me here, sorry. Are you advocating no trade/nationhood selfsuffencey? Um, clarification please. I think Cuba would be happier if they could trade more, but unfortunatly acts of terrorism by a big neighbour of theres is a hard one to get past.

"Academic concept" dunno if I'd even go that far. there is bots a really like of Marx, Engels but it's not incorprotive of "Worker Knowledge".
still better than voulntry slavery eh?

"Famous" heh , already am . but I like the question, "Pop Stars" are active in "causes" yet what are the onflows of there actions. I do believe Don Henley has done some things of longterm value but who else? Morrello defiently shows promise here Commie chic and all....
It's quite judgemental to say who does what , well or otherwise. Can't mention my own huge acts for CHARITY though, don't like to play it up etc...and I'd do more if only I could get on Nicey's radio show.
I will say that I have regualry taken "Less" in a material sense to stay "true" to spiritual/politico beliefs. yes that looks corny.

"Good/Bad summary". maybe I should of done this.

"to keep it short" I should of done this!
have a good weekend everyone , I missed of some bits but I got t play some tunes then catch 80Proof.
RRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWKKKKKKKK

[Jenesis]

Yeah, it's a pretty good album I reckon.

[foal30]

I heard on the Radio today Rage to reform (71/2 years?)
Lollapalooza with the RHCP?

was on the Rock so verifiaction required...

[Optimus_prime]

it's true, the band have confirmed this themselves

[Jenesis]

I heard they've definitely reformed for one show only, further touring a possibility.

Apparently Chris Cornell is in rehab, so Audioslave are "on a break".

[ash]

Crowded house reforming with a new drummer for the same gig