The "Loudness Wars"

[bluesbass]

I'm not sure this is in the right area... if not, Mods please can you move it.

I think this may have come up before, but I am interested in the opinions and comments of guys like Darren, Sam and the Capt. who have recorded and released albums recently, about the use (or not) of 'excessive' compression on their work.

Here are a couple of links that explain the issue (there are others...):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_wars
http://floweringtoilet.blogspot.com/200 ... -life.html

Mudcrutch's approach to the issue is reasonably novel, but you could cynically ask is it's just another money making avenue?
http://floweringtoilet.blogspot.com/200 ... essed.html

So, Darren and Sam et al... is this something you were concious of, or did on purpose, or had to fight against in the presentation of your record work on your CD releases?
I'd be very interested in your comments and thoughts...

[Hot_Grits]

This definitely has come up before.

http://www.nzguitars.com/forum/viewtopi ... t=loudness

[bluesbass]

This definitely has come up before.

http://www.nzguitars.com/forum/viewtopi ... t=loudness

Thanks HG.
But the point of difference I was hoping to get (which without reading that entire thread and from memory) was a more "close to home" perspective from a couple of guys who have recently recently released some "locally made" recordings, rather than more examples of Metalica or RHCP CDs.

[badmotor]

Personally, I am gearing up (at least mentally) to record soon and am very concerned about what to do on the mastering side of things. I still don't know who I want to hand over our EP to for mastering as I am not liking alot of what I hear locally. I don't want my music to get too squashed.

[bluesbass]

Personally, I am gearing up (at least mentally) to record soon and am very concerned about what to do on the mastering side of things. I still don't know who I want to hand over our EP to for mastering as I am not liking alot of what I hear locally. I don't want my music to get too squashed.

Me too... so that's exactly why posted the question.

[Hot_Grits]

This definitely has come up before.

http://www.nzguitars.com/forum/viewtopi ... t=loudness

Thanks HG.
But the point of difference I was hoping to get (which without reading that entire thread and from memory) was a more "close to home" perspective from a couple of guys who have recently recently released some "locally made" recordings, rather than more examples of Metalica or RHCP CDs.

There's at least one more thread where we've done that, with more comment from local dudes on their stuff. Dunno where they are, though.

For me, I've definitely done some over-compression on records I've done. Sometimes that's been the result of a bunch of dudes (including myself) getting excitable while overseeing the mastering process, other times it's been against my wishes in a democratic decision process.

That said, I'm huge on blowing out all kinds of things using parallel compression and tape compression in the recording and mastering process. But that is a little different than that kind of overall mastering compression that you get when you hand over the tapes/files and say 'make it as loud as N*E*R*D/Nickleback/etc'

I really like that concept of the two-version release, the 'candy' version and the snooty listener version. Very cool solution.

[bluesbass]

I really like that concept of the two-version release, the 'candy' version and the snooty listener version. Very cool solution.

Snooty listener!? Seriously?
Who wouldn't want their released material to be as you intended when you recorded it?
And... it's not just a case of being as loud as Nickleback, if the music lacks dynamics it may sound good initially but (as this article touches on http://www.cinchreview.com/bob-dylan-au ... dal/570/2/) it soon gets "boring".

[Hot_Grits]

I really like that concept of the two-version release, the 'candy' version and the snooty listener version. Very cool solution.

Snooty listener!? Seriously?

Well spotted: that was not the most serious comment.

[AmpShop]

Personally, I am gearing up (at least mentally) to record soon and am very concerned about what to do on the mastering side of things. I still don't know who I want to hand over our EP to for mastering as I am not liking alot of what I hear locally. I don't want my music to get too squashed.

It's a bit more money to spend up front, but can really pay off down the line in terms of you being happy with the end result: send a track to several mastering engineers and get them to do a spec master. Always interesting to hear different treatments, and it'll help a lot to narrow down exactly what approach you're after.

[AmpShop]

I really like that concept of the two-version release, the 'candy' version and the snooty listener version. Very cool solution.

Snooty listener!? Seriously?

Well spotted: that was not the most serious comment.

Quotation marks on 'snooty listener' would've been all it took to save us the aggravation. HG, you're a bad person.

[Andy_Chandler]

My intention is always to keep the dynamics from the mix as much as possible, which is a bit of a problem these days when some people think the mastering only is about getting the volume as high as possible. I´m no friend of the "loudness war". I always try to bring up the volume up to the point when the limiter begins to affect the material, and the drums is moustly the sensetive part in that matter. Especially the snaredrum.

That was a quote from one of Peter in De Betou's emails from The Mark of Man album we had mastered with him. We had to resend an altered mix after the first one, we had some hopes of a few things being sorted out in the master, when it sounded tremendously better the second time around, after we remixed to the sound we wanted to hear,and essentially reapproached it and then the mastering really polished everything on top. The resulting difference between The Mark of Man album, and the In Dread Response album being that while the standing volume is a little lower, you can turn it almost right up to before you hear any peaking, which is what I would prefer - The IDR album is great at standing, but is quick to distort due to things being pushed to high. Myself I'd much rather be able to crank something (that already sounds good, but just gets better) than something that is "loud" to start with, but limits how I can actually listen to it. My 2c.

Zorran would be the man to talk to here regarding any useful tips, he engineered both albums above and has done some awesome work with Cobra Khan, New Way Home, Subtract etc - he has an excellent ear!

[Hot_Grits]

Well spotted: that was not the most serious comment.

Quotation marks on 'snooty listener' would've been all it took to save us the aggravation. HG, you're a bad person.

Duly noted. I was ready to breate my unwillingness to use smileys, but you're dead on the nail.

[bluesbass]

I'd much rather be able to crank something (that already sounds good, but just gets better) than something that is "loud" to start with, but limits how I can actually listen to it.

Thanks Andy. That is exactly my take on it also.... but it seems that in many situations (at least those that I have read about in those articles I posted, and others) the artist/s themselves have little control over the final product.

[Timi]

Pretty much all the bands I record don't have budget left for pro mastering (unfortunately) so I end up doing it. No matter what genre they all want it loud, usually just before the point of total degradation. Sucks, but in the heavier cases it's often necessary to get the sound they want.

While I don't really like it, so much modern music just isn't dynamic in it's arrangement so it's not a huge issue a lot of the time, but I do think that loud mastering has influenced songwriting/arrangement to a degree....

[Andy_Chandler]

That's where you do alot of research into who you want to use - listen to some of your favourite sounding records, work out what you like about them, and start looking at who worked on them. Contrary to what you might think, almost anyone in the industry is approachable, some are just a little harder to get in contact with!

We chose Peter for his credentials - we love his past works, and has worked on some of our favourite records, he has been in the business for 30+ years, (so you know he knows what he's doing) and he actually worked out cheaper than most options that we had in NZ.

Most engineers will send you samples before sending you a final, giving you a chance to make any corrections, or suggestions, and to give you an overall idea of what it will sound like. Take your time with mastering, as with everything, if you've put good time into the ideas, the performance, the recording, why blow it all up the wall with a hashed up mastering job that you aren't happy with?

I'd suggest do some listening / research and start approaching some engineers. Don't be afraid to approach anyone big simply because you're from New Zealand, and it might just be a small project or whatever reason - to most people work is work, and if they like what they hear they'll enjoy working on it. Of course some are more expensive than others too, but if it means pushing the release date a month or so to get the engineer you really want, then do it - you'll only kick yourself about it later!